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Posted on 05/31/2011 11:53:33 AM PDT by marshmallow
The Protoevangelium of James
“And behold, an angel of the Lord stood by [St. Anne], saying, ‘Anne! Anne! The Lord has heard your prayer, and you shall conceive and shall bring forth, and your seed shall be spoken of in all the world.’ And Anne said, ‘As the Lord my God lives, if I beget either male or female, I will bring it as a gift to the Lord my God, and it shall minister to him in the holy things all the days of its life.’ . . . And [from the time she was three] Mary was in the temple of the Lord as if she were a dove that dwelt there” (Protoevangelium of James 4, 7 [A.D. 120]).
“And when she was twelve years old there was held a council of priests, saying, ‘Behold, Mary has reached the age of twelve years in the temple of the Lord. What then shall we do with her, lest perchance she defile the sanctuary of the Lord?’ And they said to the high priest, ‘You stand by the altar of the Lord; go in and pray concerning her, and whatever the Lord shall manifest to you, that also will we do.’ . . . [A]nd he prayed concerning her, and behold, an angel of the Lord stood by him saying, ‘Zechariah! Zechariah! Go out and assemble the widowers of the people and let them bring each his rod, and to whomsoever the Lord shall show a sign, his wife shall she be. . . . And Joseph [was chosen]. . . . And the priest said to Joseph, ‘You have been chosen by lot to take into your keeping the Virgin of the Lord.’ But Joseph refused, saying, ‘I have children, and I am an old man, and she is a young girl’” (ibid., 8–9).
“And Annas the scribe came to him [Joseph] . . . and saw that Mary was with child. And he ran away to the priest and said to him, ‘Joseph, whom you did vouch for, has committed a grievous crime.’ And the priest said, ‘How so?’ And he said, ‘He has defiled the virgin whom he received out of the temple of the Lord and has married her by stealth’” (ibid., 15).
“And the priest said, ‘Mary, why have you done this? And why have you brought your soul low and forgotten the Lord your God?’ . . . And she wept bitterly saying, ‘As the Lord my God lives, I am pure before him, and know not man’” (ibid.).
Origen
“The Book [the Protoevangelium] of James [records] that the brethren of Jesus were sons of Joseph by a former wife, whom he married before Mary. Now those who say so wish to preserve the honor of Mary in virginity to the end, so that body of hers which was appointed to minister to the Word . . . might not know intercourse with a man after the Holy Spirit came into her and the power from on high overshadowed her. And I think it in harmony with reason that Jesus was the firstfruit among men of the purity which consists in [perpetual] chastity, and Mary was among women. For it were not pious to ascribe to any other than to her the firstfruit of virginity” (Commentary on Matthew 2:17 [A.D. 248]).
Hilary of Poitiers
“If they [the brethren of the Lord] had been Mary’s sons and not those taken from Joseph’s former marriage, she would never have been given over in the moment of the passion [crucifixion] to the apostle John as his mother, the Lord saying to each, ‘Woman, behold your son,’ and to John, ‘Behold your mother’ [John 19:26–27), as he bequeathed filial love to a disciple as a consolation to the one desolate" (Commentary on Matthew 1:4 [A.D. 354]).
Athanasius
“Let those, therefore, who deny that the Son is by nature from the Father and proper to his essence deny also that he took true human flesh from the ever-virgin Mary” (Discourses Against the Arians 2:70 [A.D. 360]).
Epiphanius of Salamis
“We believe in one God, the Father almighty, maker of all things, both visible and invisible; and in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God . . . who for us men and for our salvation came down and took flesh, that is, was born perfectly of the holy ever-virgin Mary by the Holy Spirit” (The Man Well-Anchored 120 [A.D. 374]).
“And to holy Mary, [the title] ‘Virgin’ is invariably added, for that holy woman remains undefiled” (Medicine Chest Against All Heresies 78:6 [A.D. 375]).
Jerome
“[Helvidius] produces Tertullian as a witness [to his view] and quotes Victorinus, bishop of Petavium. Of Tertullian, I say no more than that he did not belong to the Church. But as regards Victorinus, I assert what has already been proven from the gospel—that he [Victorinus] spoke of the brethren of the Lord not as being sons of Mary but brethren in the sense I have explained, that is to say, brethren in point of kinship, not by nature. [By discussing such things we] are . . . following the tiny streams of opinion. Might I not array against you the whole series of ancient writers? Ignatius, Polycarp, Irenaeus, Justin Martyr, and many other apostolic and eloquent men, who against [the heretics] Ebion, Theodotus of Byzantium, and Valentinus, held these same views and wrote volumes replete with wisdom. If you had ever read what they wrote, you would be a wiser man” (Against Helvidius: The Perpetual Virginity of Mary 19 [A.D. 383]).
“We believe that God was born of a virgin, because we read it. We do not believe that Mary was married after she brought forth her Son, because we do not read it. . . . You [Helvidius] say that Mary did not remain a virgin. As for myself, I claim that Joseph himself was a virgin, through Mary, so that a virgin Son might be born of a virginal wedlock” (ibid., 21).
Didymus the Blind
“It helps us to understand the terms ‘first-born’ and ‘only-begotten’ when the Evangelist tells that Mary remained a virgin ‘until she brought forth her first-born son’ [Matt. 1:25]; for neither did Mary, who is to be honored and praised above all others, marry anyone else, nor did she ever become the Mother of anyone else, but even after childbirth she remained always and forever an immaculate virgin” (The Trinity 3:4 [A.D. 386]).
Ambrose of Milan
“Imitate her [Mary], holy mothers, who in her only dearly beloved Son set forth so great an example of material virtue; for neither have you sweeter children [than Jesus], nor did the Virgin seek the consolation of being able to bear another son” (Letters 63:111 [A.D. 388]).
Pope Siricius I
“You had good reason to be horrified at the thought that another birth might issue from the same virginal womb from which Christ was born according to the flesh. For the Lord Jesus would never have chosen to be born of a virgin if he had ever judged that she would be so incontinent as to contaminate with the seed of human intercourse the birthplace of the Lord’s body, that court of the eternal king” (Letter to Bishop Anysius [A.D. 392]).
Augustine
“In being born of a Virgin who chose to remain a Virgin even before she knew who was to be born of her, Christ wanted to approve virginity rather than to impose it. And he wanted virginity to be of free choice even in that woman in whom he took upon himself the form of a slave” (Holy Virginity 4:4 [A.D. 401]).
“It was not the visible sun, but its invisible Creator who consecrated this day for us, when the Virgin Mother, fertile of womb and integral in her virginity, brought him forth, made visible for us, by whom, when he was invisible, she too was created. A Virgin conceiving, a Virgin bearing, a Virgin pregnant, a Virgin bringing forth, a Virgin perpetual. Why do you wonder at this, O man?” (Sermons 186:1 [A.D. 411]).
“Heretics called Antidicomarites are those who contradict the perpetual virginity of Mary and affirm that after Christ was born she was joined as one with her husband” (Heresies 56 [A.D. 428]).
Leporius
“We confess, therefore, that our Lord and God, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, born of the Father before the ages, and in times most recent, made man of the Holy Spirit and the ever-virgin Mary” (Document of Amendment 3 [A.D. 426]).
Cyril of Alexandria
“[T]he Word himself, coming into the Blessed Virgin herself, assumed for himself his own temple from the substance of the Virgin and came forth from her a man in all that could be externally discerned, while interiorly he was true God. Therefore he kept his Mother a virgin even after her childbearing” (Against Those Who Do Not Wish to Confess That the Holy Virgin is the Mother of God 4 [A.D. 430]).
Pope Leo I
“His [Christ’s] origin is different, but his [human] nature is the same. Human usage and custom were lacking, but by divine power a Virgin conceived, a Virgin bore, and Virgin she remained” (Sermons 22:2 [A.D. 450]).
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or use of Photobucket bandwidth - whatever that may be.)
Stirring up trouble needlessly, deliberately amongst the Bretheren is not a fruit of Holy Spirit.
Proverbs 6:12-14
A worthless person, a wicked man,
Walks with a perverse mouth;
He winks with his eyes,
He shuffles his feet,
He points with his fingers;
Perversity is in his heart,
He devises evil continually,
He sows discord.
Stirring up trouble needlessly, deliberately amongst the Bretheren is not a fruit of Holy Spirit.
those words in your post remind me of many Biblical sayings
.
A worthless person, a wicked man,
Walks with a perverse mouth;
He winks with his eyes,
He shuffles his feet,
He points with his fingers;
Perversity is in his heart,
He devises evil continually,
He sows discord. .
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Any chance for IMHO? I include GiovannaNicoletta and Alamo-Girl because they are so skilled, more than I am, for the Scriptural warrant for our replacement theology lie viewpoint on FR.
if they don't see eye to eye with you, who is likely missing the eye.
One of us is in error.
And what if they don't??? What if Jesus never hears prayers to Mary???
There's nothing in the bible that would suggest any such thing...Jesus says for you and I to go directly to the throne of Grace, which is directly to Jesus...
Be a real pity, or even tragedy if someone prayed to Mary for a sick or injured child and Jesus never heard it...
Pray directly to God thru Jesus and you will know for certain that God heard your prayer...
....and Jesus never heard it...
Jesus Christ is God and God is omnipotent -- He hears all and knows all..
Btw, on the Throne of God, Jesus sits at the right hand of the Father
Psalms 110:1 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool. 2 The LORD shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies.Christ sits at the right hand of God, yet Jesus Christ IS God.Matthew 22:44 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?
Colossians 3:1 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
God is not separate modes of water, steam and ice.
Clearly, there is a distinction between the Father and the Son and also between the Father and the Holy Spirit
it is unscriptural to believe that Jesus = the Father and the Holy SPirit = Father, they are not three Gods, they are of one essence but they are three distinct hypostases in one God
Discuss the issues all you want, but do not make it personal.
these are three distinct hypostases yet One God, the One God of Christendom.
We do not use VAIN repetitions AS THE HEATHEN DO. They are not vain, and we don’t think we will be heard for our much speaking.
A partial Rosary (the usual use) takes me about 20 minutes. I full Rosary takes me about 80 minutes. Among other things, the Rosary is a kind of timed guided meditation. One spends about 4 minutes each on a number of “mysteries”. The first is the Annunciation. So one might visualize the interaction between Mary and Gabriel, one might think about what it means to give ones body and life to God, how saying “yes” to God leads to love entering one and growing within one to be brought forth in the future. One might silently appeal for the grace to say an ever more complete yes and make an ever more wholehearted self offering.
And, yes, if one is tired, one might just zone out. He offers rest, and sometimes rest is what I need.
A partial Rosary contains, depending on the method, 5 or 6 Our Fathers.
Are you suggesting that when Jesus took Peter and the two sons of Zebedee to pray with him in the garden he expected them to recite the Lord’s Prayer and then fall silent?
Jesus probably did pray to Mary, thus, “Woman, what have I to do with you? My hour is not yet come.” He also probably asked for some water or something to eat at least a couple of times.
As for past fallen saints, at least once He talked with Moses and Elias.
So the Church teaches.
When a Christian gets to heaven, will he/she see all three, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, or will the Christian see only one, God???
* What I wonder is if you realize that that means the Catholic Church must be the Church Christ sent and that all others are just man-made creations. *
As a Presbyterian (like many other Protestants), we say the Apostles Creed - “I believe in one catholic and apostolic church ...” (I understand catholic has the broader meaning of universal.)
Ephesians 4:4 - says there is one body.
Christ only has one church - believers He has called out to Himsef. The labels we all give ourselves are man-made.
Hmmmm...Poor wittle Catliks are good...Big mean Protestants are bad...
And they even had an American Inquisition...
Let me guess...This was written by a Catholic...
That's what you said, not me. No, there were sins on all sides. None get off being very good except for the Quakers.
Furthermore, you cannot speak for Protestants
Protestants believe in a Triune God, The Father, Son and Holy Spirit being different hypostases with the same essence -- the ONE God
Protestants do not believe in a non-Trinitarian God.
Please don't speak on their behalf
you are reasonable and very Christian and this statement is very correct.
If you hold to the Nicene Creed, anything beyond that is a family discussion, not an inter-family argument.
Since there is no word from God to pray to Mary or any other person but God, it would seems these prayers are in vain...And you've certainly got the repetitious part down pat...
DEFINITION OF VAIN
1. Not yielding the desired outcome; fruitless: a vain attempt.
2. Lacking substance or worth:
Thank you for asking me how we Christians (lutherans, Anglicans, Presbyterians, Catholics, Orthodox, Methodists, etc.) will see when we get to heaven
Apocalypse 4:3-6 tells us
[3] And he that sat, was to the sight like the jasper and the sardine stone; and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald. [4] And round about the throne were four and twenty seats; and upon the seats, four and twenty ancients sitting, clothed in white garments, and on their heads were crowns of gold.this is a description of the throne occupied by God in His three hypostases[5] And from the throne proceeded lightnings, and voices, and thunders; and there were seven lamps burning before the throne, which are the seven spirits of God.
[6] And in the sight of the throne was, as it were, a sea of glass like to crystal; and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, were four living creatures, full of eyes before and behind
This is further described in Apocalypse 5:6
And I saw: and behold in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures, and in the midst of the ancients, a Lamb standing as it were slain, having seven horns and seven eyes: which are the seven Spirits of God, sent forth into all the earthBut remember 1 Tim 6:16
[16] Who only hath immortality, and inhabiteth light inaccessible, whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and empire everlasting. Amenwe may never be able to understand completely the enormity that is the Godhead, but we can focus on the Lamb, Jesus Christ, the Son, the Word of God
all Trinitarians Christians, Presbyterians, Catholics, Lutherans, Anglicans, Orthodox, Baptists, Copts, Methodists etc. share these beliefs
Nicene Creed Credo in unum Deum, Patrem omnipotentem, factorem caeli et terrae, visibilium omnium et invisibilium. Et in unum Dominum Iesum Christum, Filium Dei unigenitum, et ex Patre natum ante omnia saecula. Deum de Deo, Lumen de Lumine, Deum verum de Deo vero, genitum non factum, consubstantialem Patri; per quem omnia facta sunt.
Qui propter nos homines et propter nostram salutem descendit de caelis. Et incarnatus est de Spiritu Sancto ex Maria Virgine, et homo factus est.
Crucifixus etiam pro nobis sub Pontio Pilato, passus et sepultus est, et resurrexit tertia die, secundum Scripturas, et ascendit in caelum, sedet ad dexteram Patris.
Et iterum venturus est cum gloria, iudicare vivos et mortuos, cuius regni non erit finis.
Et in Spiritum Sanctum, Dominum et vivificantem, qui ex Patre Filioque procedit.
Qui cum Patre et Filio simul adoratur et conglorificatur: qui locutus est per prophetas.
Et unam, sanctam, catholicam et apostolicam Ecclesiam.
Confiteor unum baptisma in remissionem peccatorum. Et expecto resurrectionem mortuorum, et vitam venturi saeculi. Amen.
We believe in one God,
the Father, the Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all that is, seen and unseen.We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
of one Being with the Father.
Through him all things were made.
For us and for our salvation
he came down from heaven:
by the power of the Holy Spirit
he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary,
and was made man.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered death and was buried.
On the third day he rose again
in accordance with the Scriptures;
he ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,
and his kingdom will have no end.We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father.
With the Father and the Son he is worshiped and glorified.
He has spoken through the Prophets.
We believe in One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.
We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
We look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come. Amen.Some Christians personally may use the lower case in the maroon line, but that is their interpretation :) and does not detract from the fact that we share the basic beliefs.
Good job, Cronos in putting this together. (I’m sure we could find many more examples in the Old Testament.)
Many of the finer points are “lost in translation.” As for me, I only read English and see through the 20th/21st century lens. Therefore, I need to trust scholars who make it their business to understand the orignal language and culture.
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