Posted on 05/31/2011 11:53:33 AM PDT by marshmallow
The Protoevangelium of James
“And behold, an angel of the Lord stood by [St. Anne], saying, ‘Anne! Anne! The Lord has heard your prayer, and you shall conceive and shall bring forth, and your seed shall be spoken of in all the world.’ And Anne said, ‘As the Lord my God lives, if I beget either male or female, I will bring it as a gift to the Lord my God, and it shall minister to him in the holy things all the days of its life.’ . . . And [from the time she was three] Mary was in the temple of the Lord as if she were a dove that dwelt there” (Protoevangelium of James 4, 7 [A.D. 120]).
“And when she was twelve years old there was held a council of priests, saying, ‘Behold, Mary has reached the age of twelve years in the temple of the Lord. What then shall we do with her, lest perchance she defile the sanctuary of the Lord?’ And they said to the high priest, ‘You stand by the altar of the Lord; go in and pray concerning her, and whatever the Lord shall manifest to you, that also will we do.’ . . . [A]nd he prayed concerning her, and behold, an angel of the Lord stood by him saying, ‘Zechariah! Zechariah! Go out and assemble the widowers of the people and let them bring each his rod, and to whomsoever the Lord shall show a sign, his wife shall she be. . . . And Joseph [was chosen]. . . . And the priest said to Joseph, ‘You have been chosen by lot to take into your keeping the Virgin of the Lord.’ But Joseph refused, saying, ‘I have children, and I am an old man, and she is a young girl’” (ibid., 8–9).
“And Annas the scribe came to him [Joseph] . . . and saw that Mary was with child. And he ran away to the priest and said to him, ‘Joseph, whom you did vouch for, has committed a grievous crime.’ And the priest said, ‘How so?’ And he said, ‘He has defiled the virgin whom he received out of the temple of the Lord and has married her by stealth’” (ibid., 15).
“And the priest said, ‘Mary, why have you done this? And why have you brought your soul low and forgotten the Lord your God?’ . . . And she wept bitterly saying, ‘As the Lord my God lives, I am pure before him, and know not man’” (ibid.).
Origen
“The Book [the Protoevangelium] of James [records] that the brethren of Jesus were sons of Joseph by a former wife, whom he married before Mary. Now those who say so wish to preserve the honor of Mary in virginity to the end, so that body of hers which was appointed to minister to the Word . . . might not know intercourse with a man after the Holy Spirit came into her and the power from on high overshadowed her. And I think it in harmony with reason that Jesus was the firstfruit among men of the purity which consists in [perpetual] chastity, and Mary was among women. For it were not pious to ascribe to any other than to her the firstfruit of virginity” (Commentary on Matthew 2:17 [A.D. 248]).
Hilary of Poitiers
“If they [the brethren of the Lord] had been Mary’s sons and not those taken from Joseph’s former marriage, she would never have been given over in the moment of the passion [crucifixion] to the apostle John as his mother, the Lord saying to each, ‘Woman, behold your son,’ and to John, ‘Behold your mother’ [John 19:26–27), as he bequeathed filial love to a disciple as a consolation to the one desolate" (Commentary on Matthew 1:4 [A.D. 354]).
Athanasius
“Let those, therefore, who deny that the Son is by nature from the Father and proper to his essence deny also that he took true human flesh from the ever-virgin Mary” (Discourses Against the Arians 2:70 [A.D. 360]).
Epiphanius of Salamis
“We believe in one God, the Father almighty, maker of all things, both visible and invisible; and in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God . . . who for us men and for our salvation came down and took flesh, that is, was born perfectly of the holy ever-virgin Mary by the Holy Spirit” (The Man Well-Anchored 120 [A.D. 374]).
“And to holy Mary, [the title] ‘Virgin’ is invariably added, for that holy woman remains undefiled” (Medicine Chest Against All Heresies 78:6 [A.D. 375]).
Jerome
“[Helvidius] produces Tertullian as a witness [to his view] and quotes Victorinus, bishop of Petavium. Of Tertullian, I say no more than that he did not belong to the Church. But as regards Victorinus, I assert what has already been proven from the gospel—that he [Victorinus] spoke of the brethren of the Lord not as being sons of Mary but brethren in the sense I have explained, that is to say, brethren in point of kinship, not by nature. [By discussing such things we] are . . . following the tiny streams of opinion. Might I not array against you the whole series of ancient writers? Ignatius, Polycarp, Irenaeus, Justin Martyr, and many other apostolic and eloquent men, who against [the heretics] Ebion, Theodotus of Byzantium, and Valentinus, held these same views and wrote volumes replete with wisdom. If you had ever read what they wrote, you would be a wiser man” (Against Helvidius: The Perpetual Virginity of Mary 19 [A.D. 383]).
“We believe that God was born of a virgin, because we read it. We do not believe that Mary was married after she brought forth her Son, because we do not read it. . . . You [Helvidius] say that Mary did not remain a virgin. As for myself, I claim that Joseph himself was a virgin, through Mary, so that a virgin Son might be born of a virginal wedlock” (ibid., 21).
Didymus the Blind
“It helps us to understand the terms ‘first-born’ and ‘only-begotten’ when the Evangelist tells that Mary remained a virgin ‘until she brought forth her first-born son’ [Matt. 1:25]; for neither did Mary, who is to be honored and praised above all others, marry anyone else, nor did she ever become the Mother of anyone else, but even after childbirth she remained always and forever an immaculate virgin” (The Trinity 3:4 [A.D. 386]).
Ambrose of Milan
“Imitate her [Mary], holy mothers, who in her only dearly beloved Son set forth so great an example of material virtue; for neither have you sweeter children [than Jesus], nor did the Virgin seek the consolation of being able to bear another son” (Letters 63:111 [A.D. 388]).
Pope Siricius I
“You had good reason to be horrified at the thought that another birth might issue from the same virginal womb from which Christ was born according to the flesh. For the Lord Jesus would never have chosen to be born of a virgin if he had ever judged that she would be so incontinent as to contaminate with the seed of human intercourse the birthplace of the Lord’s body, that court of the eternal king” (Letter to Bishop Anysius [A.D. 392]).
Augustine
“In being born of a Virgin who chose to remain a Virgin even before she knew who was to be born of her, Christ wanted to approve virginity rather than to impose it. And he wanted virginity to be of free choice even in that woman in whom he took upon himself the form of a slave” (Holy Virginity 4:4 [A.D. 401]).
“It was not the visible sun, but its invisible Creator who consecrated this day for us, when the Virgin Mother, fertile of womb and integral in her virginity, brought him forth, made visible for us, by whom, when he was invisible, she too was created. A Virgin conceiving, a Virgin bearing, a Virgin pregnant, a Virgin bringing forth, a Virgin perpetual. Why do you wonder at this, O man?” (Sermons 186:1 [A.D. 411]).
“Heretics called Antidicomarites are those who contradict the perpetual virginity of Mary and affirm that after Christ was born she was joined as one with her husband” (Heresies 56 [A.D. 428]).
Leporius
“We confess, therefore, that our Lord and God, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, born of the Father before the ages, and in times most recent, made man of the Holy Spirit and the ever-virgin Mary” (Document of Amendment 3 [A.D. 426]).
Cyril of Alexandria
“[T]he Word himself, coming into the Blessed Virgin herself, assumed for himself his own temple from the substance of the Virgin and came forth from her a man in all that could be externally discerned, while interiorly he was true God. Therefore he kept his Mother a virgin even after her childbearing” (Against Those Who Do Not Wish to Confess That the Holy Virgin is the Mother of God 4 [A.D. 430]).
Pope Leo I
“His [Christ’s] origin is different, but his [human] nature is the same. Human usage and custom were lacking, but by divine power a Virgin conceived, a Virgin bore, and Virgin she remained” (Sermons 22:2 [A.D. 450]).
You've got it backwards.
The point is not that Jesus would become "unclean" or "contaminated" by sin.
The point is that sin can not exist where God dwells. They are incompatible. Where God is, sin is not. Sin can not abide the face of God and flees from it. God's dwelling place is the Holy of Holies, free from sin. There is no sin in heaven, for this very reason.
Therefore, regarding your point about the Holy Spirit in your other post, yes, the indwelling of the Holy Spirit within us helps us to overcome sin. To the extent that we allow God's grace given through the Holy Spirit to act in us, we will avoid sin. Sin will be driven out.
This theology applies to the womb of the Virgin Mary which was Jesus' dwelling for 9 months. Tradition and the teaching of the Church tells us that this dwelling place was likewise preserved pure and holy after Jesus' birth and forever after to underline the uniqueness of the Incarnation.
What explains the next thirty-three years?
I don't discount it because of the church fathers, I discount by a clear reading of God's Word. I had never heard of replacement theology until I read FR on the subject. To the pastors I know, I had to explain the context for them to realize what I was talking about. They were unfamiliar with the concept by that name. So while you may embrace it, it is a new challenge to orthodoxy in that format, and the Scriptural basis is such that it gets no play except amongst the heterodox. Scripturally it isn't a close call.
On second thought Maybe you should not discount it. I think Martin Luther believed in the perpetual virginity of Mary IIRC. The LCMS does not however. How did that happen?
Really marbren, c'mon where have you been? Luther was a Catholic priest, did you think he was unversed in PV since he became a priest? Tell me, what is the Scriptural warrant for PV? Like the LCMS 'idolization' of doctrine, it doesn't exist, The Lutheran Confessional docs are not based on 'personal' opinion, they are rooted in God's Word, that's how it happened. The upthread execrable assertion about Luther's anti-semitism, common to the era, didn't make it either. Your question: How did that happen?
Rather more than thirty three. Tradition says that Mary lived on following Jesus' Resurrection and Ascension.
The Church Fathers and Doctors of the Church write that Mary's perpetual virginity is a witness to the splendor and uniqueness of the Incarnation. As Mary herself says in Luke's Gospel...."henceforth all generations will call me blessed". We believe that the Incarnation was an event unprecedented in history, before or since and that God witnessed to this fact and confirmed it by Mary's perpetual virginity.
I now return you to your regularly scheduled thread: The Church Fathers-Mary: Ever Virgin which will be aired in its entirety.
Even as a Catholic, it's perplexing how remaining a virgin in marriage can be considered a virtuous wife.
Well, there sure seemed to be enough sin here on earth when Jesus walked it. The whole planet should have become sinless so Jesus could have walked it, but then He would not have been tempted in every way just as we are, nor would He have been crucified. Forgiveness is granted to those who ask it.
Besides, if sin cannot exist where God dwells, does that then mean that every believer who has the Holy Spirit living in him, as Jesus said He would, therefore sinless?
If we’re not sinless, then the Holy Spirit cannot live within us. It’s not a matter of helping us over come sin. If sin cannot exist where God dwells then that’s that. You can’t have it both ways.
And the Holy Spirit lives in believers for more than 9 months at a time. If Mary was sinless simply because she bore Jesus for only 9 months, what do you do with a person who has been a believer for years, or decades? Are they likewise sinless? Not becoming more sinless, but sinless, period, like Mary.
OTOH, if you do insist that since sin cannot dwell where God is, then that proves that once someone becomes a believer and has the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit, that all their sins, past, present, and future ARE forgiven. God sees the believer that way, therefore can indwell him because that person has the righteousness of Christ imputed to him and positionally, in Christ, is indeed sin free, thus being sure of heaven.
If sinlessness is the result of being indwelt by God, then all believers are sinless.
Hasn’t that been labeled as some kind of heresy by the Catholic church?
It’s inconsistent to try to have it both ways.
The Incarnation was unique enough in its own right. It didn’t require that Mary remain sinless her entire life afterwards as *proof* of anything.
Luke 2:5
“Joseph also went up from Galilee, from the city of Nazareth, to Judea, to the city of David which is called Bethlehem, because he was of the house and family of David, in order to register along with Mary, who was ENGAGED to him, and was with child.”
You wrote:
“Try again.”
No, I got it right the first time.
“You really don’t think Jesus Christ came out of the womb of Mary?”
Did I ever say that?
Where does Scripture say they were “married” then? How old was Our Lord when that occurred?
You wrote:
“Ever wonder why a wo-man is so named?”
Nope, because there’s no such thing as a “wo-man”. There is such a thing as a woman and I have never had to wonder about their name in either Hebrew or English.
Scripture doesn’t say when they got married or how old Jesus was when that happened. However, scripture clearly says that they were only engaged at the time of Christ’s birth.
Scripture doesn’t say when they got married or how old Jesus was when that happened. However, scripture clearly says that they were only engaged at the time of Christ’s birth.
Really? So if we go by “Sola Scriptura”, if it isn’t in the Bible it isn’t. Right? Mary and Joseph never married. Right?
{{{CRICKETS}}}
Do you really want to go there?
Of course they were married. God told him to do it and Matthew clearly records that Joseph obeyed Him.
Matthew 1:18-25 18Now the birth of Jesus Christ took place in this way. When his mother Mary had been betrothed to Joseph, before they came together she was found to be with child from the Holy Spirit. 19And her husband Joseph, being a just man and unwilling to put her to shame, resolved to divorce her quietly. 20But as he considered these things, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, "Joseph, son of David, do not fear to take Mary as your wife, for that which is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit. 21She will bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins." 22 All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had spoken by the prophet:
23 "Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and they shall call his name Immanuel" (which means, God with us).
24When Joseph woke from sleep, he did as the angel of the Lord commanded him: he took his wife, 25but knew her not until she had given birth to a son. And he called his name Jesus.
It doesn't get much simpler than that.
God told Joseph to marry Mary. He did it. He waited to consummate the marriage until after the birth of Jesus.
Or do you suppose they lived together in a platonic relationship without getting married, letting everybody think that Joseph was the father of Jesus, thus leading everyone to believe that they were in an illicit relationship?
My God, can no one understand a joke when they read one? Some of you guys really need relax.
Tell me it was a bad joke. But for goodness sake, show that you at least understand what a sense of humor is.
What are you talking about? Noone ever said the Bible contains ever single fact about God and the universe. The Bible alone is all that is needed, however, for knowledge about salvation.
You really are showing your ignorance on this thread....first not knowing the scriptures declared Mary was engaged at the time of Christ’s birth; then distorting the meaning of sola scriptura.
Maybe it’s the way you tell it.
LOL, this thread is filled with protties screeching that Mary’s perpetual Virginity isn’t in the Bible and therefore not scriptural. You cannot point to when Joseph married Mary and yet you and your ilk insist that she could not have remained a Virgin her whole life. Why? Why must you and your ilk defame the Mother of God?
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