Posted on 05/31/2011 11:53:33 AM PDT by marshmallow
You've got it backwards.
The point is not that Jesus would become "unclean" or "contaminated" by sin.
The point is that sin can not exist where God dwells. They are incompatible. Where God is, sin is not. Sin can not abide the face of God and flees from it. God's dwelling place is the Holy of Holies, free from sin. There is no sin in heaven, for this very reason.
Therefore, regarding your point about the Holy Spirit in your other post, yes, the indwelling of the Holy Spirit within us helps us to overcome sin. To the extent that we allow God's grace given through the Holy Spirit to act in us, we will avoid sin. Sin will be driven out.
This theology applies to the womb of the Virgin Mary which was Jesus' dwelling for 9 months. Tradition and the teaching of the Church tells us that this dwelling place was likewise preserved pure and holy after Jesus' birth and forever after to underline the uniqueness of the Incarnation.
What explains the next thirty-three years?
I don't discount it because of the church fathers, I discount by a clear reading of God's Word. I had never heard of replacement theology until I read FR on the subject. To the pastors I know, I had to explain the context for them to realize what I was talking about. They were unfamiliar with the concept by that name. So while you may embrace it, it is a new challenge to orthodoxy in that format, and the Scriptural basis is such that it gets no play except amongst the heterodox. Scripturally it isn't a close call.
On second thought Maybe you should not discount it. I think Martin Luther believed in the perpetual virginity of Mary IIRC. The LCMS does not however. How did that happen?
Really marbren, c'mon where have you been? Luther was a Catholic priest, did you think he was unversed in PV since he became a priest? Tell me, what is the Scriptural warrant for PV? Like the LCMS 'idolization' of doctrine, it doesn't exist, The Lutheran Confessional docs are not based on 'personal' opinion, they are rooted in God's Word, that's how it happened. The upthread execrable assertion about Luther's anti-semitism, common to the era, didn't make it either. Your question: How did that happen?
Rather more than thirty three. Tradition says that Mary lived on following Jesus' Resurrection and Ascension.
The Church Fathers and Doctors of the Church write that Mary's perpetual virginity is a witness to the splendor and uniqueness of the Incarnation. As Mary herself says in Luke's Gospel...."henceforth all generations will call me blessed". We believe that the Incarnation was an event unprecedented in history, before or since and that God witnessed to this fact and confirmed it by Mary's perpetual virginity.
I now return you to your regularly scheduled thread: The Church Fathers-Mary: Ever Virgin which will be aired in its entirety.
Even as a Catholic, it's perplexing how remaining a virgin in marriage can be considered a virtuous wife.
Well, there sure seemed to be enough sin here on earth when Jesus walked it. The whole planet should have become sinless so Jesus could have walked it, but then He would not have been tempted in every way just as we are, nor would He have been crucified. Forgiveness is granted to those who ask it.
Besides, if sin cannot exist where God dwells, does that then mean that every believer who has the Holy Spirit living in him, as Jesus said He would, therefore sinless?
If we’re not sinless, then the Holy Spirit cannot live within us. It’s not a matter of helping us over come sin. If sin cannot exist where God dwells then that’s that. You can’t have it both ways.
And the Holy Spirit lives in believers for more than 9 months at a time. If Mary was sinless simply because she bore Jesus for only 9 months, what do you do with a person who has been a believer for years, or decades? Are they likewise sinless? Not becoming more sinless, but sinless, period, like Mary.
OTOH, if you do insist that since sin cannot dwell where God is, then that proves that once someone becomes a believer and has the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit, that all their sins, past, present, and future ARE forgiven. God sees the believer that way, therefore can indwell him because that person has the righteousness of Christ imputed to him and positionally, in Christ, is indeed sin free, thus being sure of heaven.
If sinlessness is the result of being indwelt by God, then all believers are sinless.
Hasn’t that been labeled as some kind of heresy by the Catholic church?
It’s inconsistent to try to have it both ways.
The Incarnation was unique enough in its own right. It didn’t require that Mary remain sinless her entire life afterwards as *proof* of anything.
Luke 2:5
“Joseph also went up from Galilee, from the city of Nazareth, to Judea, to the city of David which is called Bethlehem, because he was of the house and family of David, in order to register along with Mary, who was ENGAGED to him, and was with child.”
You wrote:
“Try again.”
No, I got it right the first time.
“You really dont think Jesus Christ came out of the womb of Mary?”
Did I ever say that?
Where does Scripture say they were married then? How old was Our Lord when that occurred?
You wrote:
“Ever wonder why a wo-man is so named?”
Nope, because there’s no such thing as a “wo-man”. There is such a thing as a woman and I have never had to wonder about their name in either Hebrew or English.
Scripture doesn’t say when they got married or how old Jesus was when that happened. However, scripture clearly says that they were only engaged at the time of Christ’s birth.
Scripture doesn’t say when they got married or how old Jesus was when that happened. However, scripture clearly says that they were only engaged at the time of Christ’s birth.
Really? So if we go by “Sola Scriptura”, if it isn’t in the Bible it isn’t. Right? Mary and Joseph never married. Right?
{{{CRICKETS}}}
Do you really want to go there?
Of course they were married. God told him to do it and Matthew clearly records that Joseph obeyed Him.
Matthew 1:18-25 18Now the birth of Jesus Christ took place in this way. When his mother Mary had been betrothed to Joseph, before they came together she was found to be with child from the Holy Spirit. 19And her husband Joseph, being a just man and unwilling to put her to shame, resolved to divorce her quietly. 20But as he considered these things, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, "Joseph, son of David, do not fear to take Mary as your wife, for that which is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit. 21She will bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins." 22 All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had spoken by the prophet:
23 "Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and they shall call his name Immanuel" (which means, God with us).
24When Joseph woke from sleep, he did as the angel of the Lord commanded him: he took his wife, 25but knew her not until she had given birth to a son. And he called his name Jesus.
It doesn't get much simpler than that.
God told Joseph to marry Mary. He did it. He waited to consummate the marriage until after the birth of Jesus.
Or do you suppose they lived together in a platonic relationship without getting married, letting everybody think that Joseph was the father of Jesus, thus leading everyone to believe that they were in an illicit relationship?
My God, can no one understand a joke when they read one? Some of you guys really need relax.
Tell me it was a bad joke. But for goodness sake, show that you at least understand what a sense of humor is.
What are you talking about? Noone ever said the Bible contains ever single fact about God and the universe. The Bible alone is all that is needed, however, for knowledge about salvation.
You really are showing your ignorance on this thread....first not knowing the scriptures declared Mary was engaged at the time of Christ’s birth; then distorting the meaning of sola scriptura.
Maybe it’s the way you tell it.
LOL, this thread is filled with protties screeching that Mary’s perpetual Virginity isn’t in the Bible and therefore not scriptural. You cannot point to when Joseph married Mary and yet you and your ilk insist that she could not have remained a Virgin her whole life. Why? Why must you and your ilk defame the Mother of God?
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