Posted on 05/31/2011 11:53:33 AM PDT by marshmallow
The Protoevangelium of James
“And behold, an angel of the Lord stood by [St. Anne], saying, ‘Anne! Anne! The Lord has heard your prayer, and you shall conceive and shall bring forth, and your seed shall be spoken of in all the world.’ And Anne said, ‘As the Lord my God lives, if I beget either male or female, I will bring it as a gift to the Lord my God, and it shall minister to him in the holy things all the days of its life.’ . . . And [from the time she was three] Mary was in the temple of the Lord as if she were a dove that dwelt there” (Protoevangelium of James 4, 7 [A.D. 120]).
“And when she was twelve years old there was held a council of priests, saying, ‘Behold, Mary has reached the age of twelve years in the temple of the Lord. What then shall we do with her, lest perchance she defile the sanctuary of the Lord?’ And they said to the high priest, ‘You stand by the altar of the Lord; go in and pray concerning her, and whatever the Lord shall manifest to you, that also will we do.’ . . . [A]nd he prayed concerning her, and behold, an angel of the Lord stood by him saying, ‘Zechariah! Zechariah! Go out and assemble the widowers of the people and let them bring each his rod, and to whomsoever the Lord shall show a sign, his wife shall she be. . . . And Joseph [was chosen]. . . . And the priest said to Joseph, ‘You have been chosen by lot to take into your keeping the Virgin of the Lord.’ But Joseph refused, saying, ‘I have children, and I am an old man, and she is a young girl’” (ibid., 8–9).
“And Annas the scribe came to him [Joseph] . . . and saw that Mary was with child. And he ran away to the priest and said to him, ‘Joseph, whom you did vouch for, has committed a grievous crime.’ And the priest said, ‘How so?’ And he said, ‘He has defiled the virgin whom he received out of the temple of the Lord and has married her by stealth’” (ibid., 15).
“And the priest said, ‘Mary, why have you done this? And why have you brought your soul low and forgotten the Lord your God?’ . . . And she wept bitterly saying, ‘As the Lord my God lives, I am pure before him, and know not man’” (ibid.).
Origen
“The Book [the Protoevangelium] of James [records] that the brethren of Jesus were sons of Joseph by a former wife, whom he married before Mary. Now those who say so wish to preserve the honor of Mary in virginity to the end, so that body of hers which was appointed to minister to the Word . . . might not know intercourse with a man after the Holy Spirit came into her and the power from on high overshadowed her. And I think it in harmony with reason that Jesus was the firstfruit among men of the purity which consists in [perpetual] chastity, and Mary was among women. For it were not pious to ascribe to any other than to her the firstfruit of virginity” (Commentary on Matthew 2:17 [A.D. 248]).
Hilary of Poitiers
“If they [the brethren of the Lord] had been Mary’s sons and not those taken from Joseph’s former marriage, she would never have been given over in the moment of the passion [crucifixion] to the apostle John as his mother, the Lord saying to each, ‘Woman, behold your son,’ and to John, ‘Behold your mother’ [John 19:26–27), as he bequeathed filial love to a disciple as a consolation to the one desolate" (Commentary on Matthew 1:4 [A.D. 354]).
Athanasius
“Let those, therefore, who deny that the Son is by nature from the Father and proper to his essence deny also that he took true human flesh from the ever-virgin Mary” (Discourses Against the Arians 2:70 [A.D. 360]).
Epiphanius of Salamis
“We believe in one God, the Father almighty, maker of all things, both visible and invisible; and in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God . . . who for us men and for our salvation came down and took flesh, that is, was born perfectly of the holy ever-virgin Mary by the Holy Spirit” (The Man Well-Anchored 120 [A.D. 374]).
“And to holy Mary, [the title] ‘Virgin’ is invariably added, for that holy woman remains undefiled” (Medicine Chest Against All Heresies 78:6 [A.D. 375]).
Jerome
“[Helvidius] produces Tertullian as a witness [to his view] and quotes Victorinus, bishop of Petavium. Of Tertullian, I say no more than that he did not belong to the Church. But as regards Victorinus, I assert what has already been proven from the gospel—that he [Victorinus] spoke of the brethren of the Lord not as being sons of Mary but brethren in the sense I have explained, that is to say, brethren in point of kinship, not by nature. [By discussing such things we] are . . . following the tiny streams of opinion. Might I not array against you the whole series of ancient writers? Ignatius, Polycarp, Irenaeus, Justin Martyr, and many other apostolic and eloquent men, who against [the heretics] Ebion, Theodotus of Byzantium, and Valentinus, held these same views and wrote volumes replete with wisdom. If you had ever read what they wrote, you would be a wiser man” (Against Helvidius: The Perpetual Virginity of Mary 19 [A.D. 383]).
“We believe that God was born of a virgin, because we read it. We do not believe that Mary was married after she brought forth her Son, because we do not read it. . . . You [Helvidius] say that Mary did not remain a virgin. As for myself, I claim that Joseph himself was a virgin, through Mary, so that a virgin Son might be born of a virginal wedlock” (ibid., 21).
Didymus the Blind
“It helps us to understand the terms ‘first-born’ and ‘only-begotten’ when the Evangelist tells that Mary remained a virgin ‘until she brought forth her first-born son’ [Matt. 1:25]; for neither did Mary, who is to be honored and praised above all others, marry anyone else, nor did she ever become the Mother of anyone else, but even after childbirth she remained always and forever an immaculate virgin” (The Trinity 3:4 [A.D. 386]).
Ambrose of Milan
“Imitate her [Mary], holy mothers, who in her only dearly beloved Son set forth so great an example of material virtue; for neither have you sweeter children [than Jesus], nor did the Virgin seek the consolation of being able to bear another son” (Letters 63:111 [A.D. 388]).
Pope Siricius I
“You had good reason to be horrified at the thought that another birth might issue from the same virginal womb from which Christ was born according to the flesh. For the Lord Jesus would never have chosen to be born of a virgin if he had ever judged that she would be so incontinent as to contaminate with the seed of human intercourse the birthplace of the Lord’s body, that court of the eternal king” (Letter to Bishop Anysius [A.D. 392]).
Augustine
“In being born of a Virgin who chose to remain a Virgin even before she knew who was to be born of her, Christ wanted to approve virginity rather than to impose it. And he wanted virginity to be of free choice even in that woman in whom he took upon himself the form of a slave” (Holy Virginity 4:4 [A.D. 401]).
“It was not the visible sun, but its invisible Creator who consecrated this day for us, when the Virgin Mother, fertile of womb and integral in her virginity, brought him forth, made visible for us, by whom, when he was invisible, she too was created. A Virgin conceiving, a Virgin bearing, a Virgin pregnant, a Virgin bringing forth, a Virgin perpetual. Why do you wonder at this, O man?” (Sermons 186:1 [A.D. 411]).
“Heretics called Antidicomarites are those who contradict the perpetual virginity of Mary and affirm that after Christ was born she was joined as one with her husband” (Heresies 56 [A.D. 428]).
Leporius
“We confess, therefore, that our Lord and God, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, born of the Father before the ages, and in times most recent, made man of the Holy Spirit and the ever-virgin Mary” (Document of Amendment 3 [A.D. 426]).
Cyril of Alexandria
“[T]he Word himself, coming into the Blessed Virgin herself, assumed for himself his own temple from the substance of the Virgin and came forth from her a man in all that could be externally discerned, while interiorly he was true God. Therefore he kept his Mother a virgin even after her childbearing” (Against Those Who Do Not Wish to Confess That the Holy Virgin is the Mother of God 4 [A.D. 430]).
Pope Leo I
“His [Christ’s] origin is different, but his [human] nature is the same. Human usage and custom were lacking, but by divine power a Virgin conceived, a Virgin bore, and Virgin she remained” (Sermons 22:2 [A.D. 450]).
My soul magnifies the Lord,
And my spirit rejoices in God my Savior.
For He has regarded the low estate of His handmaiden,
For behold, henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.
For He who is mighty has done great things for me, and holy is His name. And His mercy is on those who fear Him from generation to generation.
He has shown strength with His arm:
He has scattered the proud in the imagination of their hearts.
He has put down the mighty from their thrones,
and exalted those of low degree.
He has filled the hungry with good things;
and the rich He has sent empty away.
He has helped His servant Israel, in remembrance of His mercy;
As He spoke to our fathers, to Abraham and to His posterity forever.
Glory be to the Father and to the Son and to the Holy Spirit.
As it was in the beginning, is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen
Magníficat ánima mea Dóminum,
et exsultávit spíritus meus
in Deo salvatóre meo,
quia respéxit humilitátem
ancíllæ suæ.
Ecce enim ex hoc beátam
me dicent omnes generatiónes,
quia fecit mihi magna,
qui potens est,
et sanctum nomen eius,
et misericórdia eius in progénies
et progénies timéntibus eum.
Fecit poténtiam in bráchio suo,
dispérsit supérbos mente cordis sui;
depósuit poténtes de sede
et exaltávit húmiles.
Esuriéntes implévit bonis
et dívites dimísit inánes.
Suscépit Ísrael púerum suum,
recordátus misericórdiæ,
sicut locútus est ad patres nostros,
Ábraham et sémini eius in sæcula.
Glória Patri et Fílio
et Spirítui Sancto.
Sicut erat in princípio,
et nunc et semper,
et in sæcula sæculórum.
Amen.
She became the Mother of God, in which work so many and such great good things are bestowed on her as pass man’s understanding. For on this there follows all honor, all blessedness, and her unique place in the whole of mankind, among which she has no equal, namely, that she had a child by the Father in heaven, and such a Child . . . Hence men have crowded all her glory into a single word, calling her the Mother of God . . . None can say of her nor announce to her greater things, even though he had as many tongues as the earth possesses flowers and blades of grass: the sky, stars; and the sea, grains of sand. It needs to be pondered in the heart what it means to be the Mother of God.
(Commentary on the Magnificat, 1521; in Luther’s Works, Pelikan et al, vol. 21, 326)
Taken from the Bible and the Greek Lexicon which is my source for Greek translations.
The Greek lexicon can be found here; http://www.searchgodsword.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=476
And you have permission to post that copy written material?
“A normal husband/wife relationship is honoring to God”
I agree with that statement and have no quarrel with it.
Catholics and Orthodox do not believe that our belief in the Perpetual Virginity of Mary in anyway shows we think less of marriage and in anyway dishonor it.
We believe that Mary is unique amongst all of God’s creation in being chosen to bear Chris the Savior. We don’t think her special status was only temporary and ended with the birth of Christ. She is unique not because of what she did but because of what God did. It was Christ who sanctified her womb. This we believe does set her apart and to us it follows it set her marriage to Joseph apart from most marriages.
Simply put such a unique contact with the very God renders Mary holy in a way no other human will ever experience.
Copy written? Have you gone to the Greek Lexicon site? It’s simply a tool to use to get the definitions of the Greek words used in the New Testament. And surely we can quote the Bible here.
Copyright © 2001-2011, Heartlight, Inc.
Hebrews 4:15 For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who in every respect has been tempted as we are, yet without sin.
Nothing like sibling rivalry to bring out the best in someone.
I can see it now.....
Mary: "James, why can't you be more like Jesus. He always does what I ask without arguing or complaining?"
Like that's going to go over well with all the siblings. I can just imagine the plots going on to get Jesus to do SOMETHING, ANYTHING to get Him in trouble.
You can pick your friends, but you can't pick your relatives. I'd hazard a guess that His brothers and sisters made life pretty miserable sometimes, tempting Him in every way, just as each of us are.
If Mary made normal marriage vows to Joseph and didn’t fulfill them, she defrauded Joseph and that certainly would be a sin.
Sorry I wasn’t more specific.
I wasn’t just speaking of the Greek words and translations, but the actual paragraph content.
The paragraph beginning “The following is from the Gospel of Matthew,” and the paragraph beginning “In Greek, the language of the New Testament, the word for brother/ brethren ...”, are both identical to an essay posted on an online source (not the lexicon website).
Hopefully that clarifies my question a bit.
Quite truthfully, your post is the first sincere post I’ve read in a long time. However, at this point in time I don’t really find it of consequence if Mary rejected intercourse or Joseph and Mary never consummated their marriage. IMHO, it’s none of our business and even more perverted for anybody or any religious doctrine to pay homage to Mary on the assumption and basis she never had sex with her husband.
There are so many more obvious doctrines in Scripture to study, think about, and have daily impact in our thinking than this topic. IMHO, the world has gone nuts over transgender, transsexual, homosexual and any other type of sexual perversion, when God made man and woman, marriage, the family, and national authorities for the blessings of believers and unbelievers alike.
If Mary really remained virgin, after the birth of Christ, couldn’t His Incarnation also be challenged as not having been emanated from a human mother? Wouldn’t His birth alone void her classification as ‘virgin’ after the birth.
There is no prohibition against posting LINKS to copy-righted material, only posting the material itself.
Posting the link is not the same.
That’s why some FR threads are link only, because the copy right restrictions prohibit the material but not the links. The threads are still allowed to be posted unless they sources even specify prohibiting links as well.
Perhaps the RM could clear this up....
It appears that there are no lengths too great for some to go to to prevent people from reading and understanding God’s word.
You wrote:
“If Mary made normal marriage vows to Joseph and didn’t fulfill them, she defrauded Joseph and that certainly would be a sin.”
Mary was picked before all ages of history.
Mary was visited by an angel and told she would give birth - even though she was unmarried and a virgin.
Joseph was visited by an angel and told not to break his relationship with his bride even though she was pregnant with Someone else’s child.
Mary gave birth to God in the flesh. Eventually He would die on the cross for our sins.
Stop me when I get to the “normal marriage” part. Compare their marriage to yours. Which one seems “normal” to you?
I’ve studied the Fathers, and the fact of the matter, on this and various other doctrinal issues they were NOT inerrant—nor did they ever claim to be.
For example before the 4th Century, many of the Fathers get the doctrine of the holy Trinity partly or entirely wrong....but that’s OK, it hadn’t been fully worked out and understood (as much as can be understood) yet...
The fact of the matter is that the Roman world from the 2nd Century on was greatly influenced by gnostic, anti-material-world beliefs. Sex, marriage, and women...are all symbolic of this material world, hence, the Fathers (and later, the Medieval Church) tended to have a low view of sexual relations (yes, even in marriage), marriage (the REALLY dedicated Christians don’t marry, don’t you know...), and women (temptresses all, unless in a Convent!).
When Gentile Christians dominated the Church—old Hebrew ideas (which were always positive about the material world—since God made it, and so were positive about sex, marriage, and women (see the Song of Songs)) waned, and Pagan philosophical assumptions (anti-material-world) had a deep influence.
Elevation of virginity as somehow morally superior to fidelity in marriage was one of those influences—as evidenced in the writings of the Fathers.
Given this assumption, naturally, it was assumed...Mary, as the best of all women, just HAD to have been a virgin even after Jesus’ birth.
Some theories had it that not even Jesus birth passed through the birth-canal or ruptured her hymen...and somehow the baby just miraculously appeared in her lap!
Thank God Apostolic Tradition was fully written down in the New Testament however, therefore we can get past, and get over, those ancient Roman and Medieval philosophical biases....
That's a very interesting perspective. I never looked at it that way before.
Wouldn’t His birth alone void her classification as ‘virgin’ after the birth.
That has been discussed in great depth. Last I recall, some Catholic theologians have speculated that Jesus' birth was a supernatural passing of Him through Mary's body without the normal birthing process.
http://totus2tuus.blogspot.com/2008/02/dogma-of-perpetual-virginity-of-mary.html
However, that would be contradicted by Luke chapter 2 where is says she gave birth and later in the chapter, she went to the Temple for her purification according to the Law, offering two turtle doves.
You wrote:
“If Mary really remained virgin, after the birth of Christ, couldn’t His Incarnation also be challenged as not having been emanated from a human mother?”
Nope. That’s not even a logical thought. There’s no connection between the one and the other. Jesus’ incarnation was not dependent upon Mary later having sex. How could it? That’s like saying that your incarnation is some how based on your mother LATER have sexual relations. The one has NOTHING to do with the other.
“Wouldn’t His birth alone void her classification as ‘virgin’ after the birth.”
No. Not in her case. Hence, perpetual virgin. That was the point: God respected her vow.
Links wasn’t posted. Material was.
Q.E.D.
You wrote:
“However, that would be contradicted by Luke chapter 2 where is says she gave birth and later in the chapter, she went to the Temple for her purification according to the Law, offering two turtle doves.”
There’s no contradiction. Jesus was baptized by John. What sins did Jesus need to be repenting of in his baptism? None. There’s no contradiction. Jesus and Mary were faithful Jews. They did what was expected of them.
“Including having sexual relations with their spouse, of course.”
Why “of course”? Did Joseph take his “marital rights” before Our Lord was born?
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