OK. Different verses.
Some of us just have fun with pics.
And some of us save our thousand words a pic for a more discerning audience.
Posted on 05/31/2011 11:53:33 AM PDT by marshmallow
The Protoevangelium of James
“And behold, an angel of the Lord stood by [St. Anne], saying, ‘Anne! Anne! The Lord has heard your prayer, and you shall conceive and shall bring forth, and your seed shall be spoken of in all the world.’ And Anne said, ‘As the Lord my God lives, if I beget either male or female, I will bring it as a gift to the Lord my God, and it shall minister to him in the holy things all the days of its life.’ . . . And [from the time she was three] Mary was in the temple of the Lord as if she were a dove that dwelt there” (Protoevangelium of James 4, 7 [A.D. 120]).
“And when she was twelve years old there was held a council of priests, saying, ‘Behold, Mary has reached the age of twelve years in the temple of the Lord. What then shall we do with her, lest perchance she defile the sanctuary of the Lord?’ And they said to the high priest, ‘You stand by the altar of the Lord; go in and pray concerning her, and whatever the Lord shall manifest to you, that also will we do.’ . . . [A]nd he prayed concerning her, and behold, an angel of the Lord stood by him saying, ‘Zechariah! Zechariah! Go out and assemble the widowers of the people and let them bring each his rod, and to whomsoever the Lord shall show a sign, his wife shall she be. . . . And Joseph [was chosen]. . . . And the priest said to Joseph, ‘You have been chosen by lot to take into your keeping the Virgin of the Lord.’ But Joseph refused, saying, ‘I have children, and I am an old man, and she is a young girl’” (ibid., 8–9).
“And Annas the scribe came to him [Joseph] . . . and saw that Mary was with child. And he ran away to the priest and said to him, ‘Joseph, whom you did vouch for, has committed a grievous crime.’ And the priest said, ‘How so?’ And he said, ‘He has defiled the virgin whom he received out of the temple of the Lord and has married her by stealth’” (ibid., 15).
“And the priest said, ‘Mary, why have you done this? And why have you brought your soul low and forgotten the Lord your God?’ . . . And she wept bitterly saying, ‘As the Lord my God lives, I am pure before him, and know not man’” (ibid.).
Origen
“The Book [the Protoevangelium] of James [records] that the brethren of Jesus were sons of Joseph by a former wife, whom he married before Mary. Now those who say so wish to preserve the honor of Mary in virginity to the end, so that body of hers which was appointed to minister to the Word . . . might not know intercourse with a man after the Holy Spirit came into her and the power from on high overshadowed her. And I think it in harmony with reason that Jesus was the firstfruit among men of the purity which consists in [perpetual] chastity, and Mary was among women. For it were not pious to ascribe to any other than to her the firstfruit of virginity” (Commentary on Matthew 2:17 [A.D. 248]).
Hilary of Poitiers
“If they [the brethren of the Lord] had been Mary’s sons and not those taken from Joseph’s former marriage, she would never have been given over in the moment of the passion [crucifixion] to the apostle John as his mother, the Lord saying to each, ‘Woman, behold your son,’ and to John, ‘Behold your mother’ [John 19:26–27), as he bequeathed filial love to a disciple as a consolation to the one desolate" (Commentary on Matthew 1:4 [A.D. 354]).
Athanasius
“Let those, therefore, who deny that the Son is by nature from the Father and proper to his essence deny also that he took true human flesh from the ever-virgin Mary” (Discourses Against the Arians 2:70 [A.D. 360]).
Epiphanius of Salamis
“We believe in one God, the Father almighty, maker of all things, both visible and invisible; and in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God . . . who for us men and for our salvation came down and took flesh, that is, was born perfectly of the holy ever-virgin Mary by the Holy Spirit” (The Man Well-Anchored 120 [A.D. 374]).
“And to holy Mary, [the title] ‘Virgin’ is invariably added, for that holy woman remains undefiled” (Medicine Chest Against All Heresies 78:6 [A.D. 375]).
Jerome
“[Helvidius] produces Tertullian as a witness [to his view] and quotes Victorinus, bishop of Petavium. Of Tertullian, I say no more than that he did not belong to the Church. But as regards Victorinus, I assert what has already been proven from the gospel—that he [Victorinus] spoke of the brethren of the Lord not as being sons of Mary but brethren in the sense I have explained, that is to say, brethren in point of kinship, not by nature. [By discussing such things we] are . . . following the tiny streams of opinion. Might I not array against you the whole series of ancient writers? Ignatius, Polycarp, Irenaeus, Justin Martyr, and many other apostolic and eloquent men, who against [the heretics] Ebion, Theodotus of Byzantium, and Valentinus, held these same views and wrote volumes replete with wisdom. If you had ever read what they wrote, you would be a wiser man” (Against Helvidius: The Perpetual Virginity of Mary 19 [A.D. 383]).
“We believe that God was born of a virgin, because we read it. We do not believe that Mary was married after she brought forth her Son, because we do not read it. . . . You [Helvidius] say that Mary did not remain a virgin. As for myself, I claim that Joseph himself was a virgin, through Mary, so that a virgin Son might be born of a virginal wedlock” (ibid., 21).
Didymus the Blind
“It helps us to understand the terms ‘first-born’ and ‘only-begotten’ when the Evangelist tells that Mary remained a virgin ‘until she brought forth her first-born son’ [Matt. 1:25]; for neither did Mary, who is to be honored and praised above all others, marry anyone else, nor did she ever become the Mother of anyone else, but even after childbirth she remained always and forever an immaculate virgin” (The Trinity 3:4 [A.D. 386]).
Ambrose of Milan
“Imitate her [Mary], holy mothers, who in her only dearly beloved Son set forth so great an example of material virtue; for neither have you sweeter children [than Jesus], nor did the Virgin seek the consolation of being able to bear another son” (Letters 63:111 [A.D. 388]).
Pope Siricius I
“You had good reason to be horrified at the thought that another birth might issue from the same virginal womb from which Christ was born according to the flesh. For the Lord Jesus would never have chosen to be born of a virgin if he had ever judged that she would be so incontinent as to contaminate with the seed of human intercourse the birthplace of the Lord’s body, that court of the eternal king” (Letter to Bishop Anysius [A.D. 392]).
Augustine
“In being born of a Virgin who chose to remain a Virgin even before she knew who was to be born of her, Christ wanted to approve virginity rather than to impose it. And he wanted virginity to be of free choice even in that woman in whom he took upon himself the form of a slave” (Holy Virginity 4:4 [A.D. 401]).
“It was not the visible sun, but its invisible Creator who consecrated this day for us, when the Virgin Mother, fertile of womb and integral in her virginity, brought him forth, made visible for us, by whom, when he was invisible, she too was created. A Virgin conceiving, a Virgin bearing, a Virgin pregnant, a Virgin bringing forth, a Virgin perpetual. Why do you wonder at this, O man?” (Sermons 186:1 [A.D. 411]).
“Heretics called Antidicomarites are those who contradict the perpetual virginity of Mary and affirm that after Christ was born she was joined as one with her husband” (Heresies 56 [A.D. 428]).
Leporius
“We confess, therefore, that our Lord and God, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, born of the Father before the ages, and in times most recent, made man of the Holy Spirit and the ever-virgin Mary” (Document of Amendment 3 [A.D. 426]).
Cyril of Alexandria
“[T]he Word himself, coming into the Blessed Virgin herself, assumed for himself his own temple from the substance of the Virgin and came forth from her a man in all that could be externally discerned, while interiorly he was true God. Therefore he kept his Mother a virgin even after her childbearing” (Against Those Who Do Not Wish to Confess That the Holy Virgin is the Mother of God 4 [A.D. 430]).
Pope Leo I
“His [Christ’s] origin is different, but his [human] nature is the same. Human usage and custom were lacking, but by divine power a Virgin conceived, a Virgin bore, and Virgin she remained” (Sermons 22:2 [A.D. 450]).
Sorry to leave and jump back in again - saw this great article, that is so timely for Christian debates - especially on threads like this.
Five Words That Could Save the Church
http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2011/05/31/words-save-church/
Tried that. Didn’t work.
And how do we know this? One more time..did Joseph complain to his guy friends ? Did Mary discuss her sex life with the apostles and disciples.. just how do you know this is true?
I thought Mary never sinned
1Cor 7:3-4 (NRS) The husband should give to his wife her conjugal rights, and likewise the wife to her husband. For the wife does not have authority over her own body, but the husband does; likewise the husband does not have authority over his own body, but the wife does.
We KNOW that every word in the scripture true.. What is the measuring rod for non scriptural teaching ?
what is your measure for truth
I know you mean well and are being most charitable but I totally disagree with the point of that article. I speak not just as a Catholic but believe it is essential to Christianity that we not be afraid to proclaim some things as absolute truth not to be dumbed down or sugar coated. This is especially important in confronting a culture where moral absolutes are suspect and where truth is considered relative.
I think all orthodox Christians would agree on the statement that “Christ is God”, “Christ died for our sins.” “Christ is Lord and Savior.” Would you agree that to preface these statements “But I might be wrong” compromises the Gospel and our ability to bring it to the world?
Now what about theological differences in different Christian sects? Is it helpful to preface sincerly held beliefs with “But I might be wrong.” No it is not. Honest, charitable debate does not arise out of denying one’s beliefs but out of defending them civilly. It arises out of not lying about what others believe but out of respectful disagreement based on a firm grounding in the apologetics of the subject faith.
I don’t want a Baptist to tell me he might be wrong in believing that infant baptism is against Scripture. I don’t want a Calvinist to tell me he might be wrong for believing in forensic justification.
I don’t want to tell another Christian that I think I may be wrong to believe in the Perpetual Virginity of Mary.
Christians have some very real and very heated disagreements. Most of which arise from different understandings of meaning in Scripture. We look at the same evidence (so to say) and come to a different conclusion. Fine I can live with that. What I can’t live with is lying about what others believe or pretending to believe what one doesn’t in order to make peace.
I may believe someone is wrong. But I can still respect them. I won’t respect someone who compromises their beliefs simply to avoid offending those who disagree with them.
Mind you such can be done with charity and grace something which is very lacking in these forums.
You are wrong. The Church does not teach the Pope is a prophet. The Church teaches there shall be no more public revelation until the return of Christ. So th Pope can not be a Prophet.
Thank you.
OK. Different verses.
You are welcome. Though for the most part facts never intrude upon the opinion of many here.
Well and fittingly put—certainly about the essentials.
Wow. Your response is about as long as the article. Have you thought about writing a column? You would be good at it.
I agree with the essentials as you said, “Christ is God”, “Christ died for our sins.” “Christ is Lord and Savior.”
But as St. Paul said - “We see through a glass, darkly...” (1 Corinthians 13:12)
As of the non-essensentials, speaking for myself, I can say - I have been wrong at times. Or at least I should see the other position. It’s not being wishy washy - it’s just that I dont’ have all the information.
You wrote:
“Marys womb was just a womb after the birth of Jesus ...”
Nope. After Jesus’ birth it was the womb that had been selected by God since before the beginning of all time to carry the Messiah. Was Jerusalem just another city after Jesus’ time? Calvary just another hill?
“she , like all Jewish women observed the rites of purification following the birth ...”
And Jesus was baptized - even though He had nothing to repent of.
“so she was able to have sex with her husband ..The Son of Man was to be fully human, have a complete human experience which would have included parents that loved one and other.. had marital relations and had brothers and sisters..”
So, that would mean Jesus never had the “complete human experience” because he never married, had sex or had children. He also never grew old. Do you see how absurd your argument is? It is falling apart in front of your eyes.
“Mary is not a goddess ...to make her one blasphemes God. “
No one here is doing that - but if you are claiming we are then you are bearing false witness.
“If her sexual life was ordered by God to be different that the other women of her day.. that would have been made clear in the scriptures..”
Show me where in scripture we are told that God had differently ordered Jesus’ and Paul’s sex life. Can you? No, you will fail. If you’re assuming that all of your assumptions are in scripture or refuted by scripture you’ll be very disappointed.
“instead we read this..
“Mat 1:25 And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.”
I already posted info on how anti-Catholics and Protestants misunderstand this verse. It is amazing how people can actually assume the meaning of the Englsih word “until” or “til” is the same in Greek.
“Would Mary having a sexual relationship with her husband made her a sinner?”
If she had vowed otherwise, yes.
“Would it have soiled her?”
If she had vowed otherwise, yes.
“Would Jesus not have loved her?”
He loves all people. He loved her so much that she had the grace to be perfectly sinless.
“The only reason for this doctrine is the Misogyny of the men in those days, and apparently Catholic men today.”
Hilariously wrong. No misogyny exists in virginity. Again, Jesus praised chosen virginity (Matthew 19:11-12). Thus, you are saying Jesus must have possessed a hateful mind. You have defeated yourself, again.
You wrote:
“And how do we know this? One more time..did Joseph complain to his guy friends ? Did Mary discuss her sex life with the apostles and disciples.. just how do you know this is true?”
She discussed it with God’s angel. Read Luke 1:34-40.
“I thought Mary never sinned”
Right. She didn’t. She followed her vow. She committed no sin by doing so.
You wrote:
“In post 9 I asked this”
No, you did not. I posted #9. Here it is:
Do you expect every truth to be in Scripture?
If you do, then please show me a scriptural verse for that.
9 posted on Tuesday, May 31, 2011 2:11:58 PM by vladimir998 (When anti-Catholics can’t debate they just make stuff up.)
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When you learn to read, let me know. My question came first. 9 comes before 40. You do know that, right?
Again.
I have not noticed much impassioned debate about the non essentials (when both sides agree they are non essentials.)
What would you consider a non essential?
“I like to think of the protestant mindset on Scripture as autonomous individualism. Whatever I think the Bible says, that’s what it says”
If I believe that Jesus died on the cross for my sins, and rose again on the the third day. If try to live my life according to biblical standards; being a good shephard of Christ. Why must one believe salvation will elude me. That grace will not be granted. That justification and sanctification will not become manifest. Just because I, as a Protestant, choose to worship and believe from a differenct construct than the Catholic Church, why am I damned as some in the Catholic Church would say? I believe just as you do, with small differences in details.
This teaching is rubbish. Mary had other children. What Catholic doesn’t believe in a large family?
You asked for the “measuring rod for non-Scriptural teaching”. I gave you verses from Scripture that support the Church's authority to teach. If that's not enough for you, then I'm sorry.
You know very well that this topic has been hashed out over thousands of posts on hundreds of threads, and the Catholic point of view clearly expressed umpteen number of times. You and your buddies have posted over and over again the same tired old charges, that we're a “cult”, etc, in an attempt to bait Catholics and draw them into a fight. That tactic got stale a long time ago.
Have a nice day.
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