Camping May 21 Rapture and the Replacement Theology Lie

vanity | 5/21/11 | marbren

[marbren]

Camping is a victim of replacement theology. IMHO the lie of replacement theology is almost as insidious as idolatry. The key to holistic understanding of Bible prophecy is to understand the role of Israel in it. God keeps his promises to Israel. This is a model to the rest of us that he will keep his promises to us as well.

A majority of the church going world has been victimized. I believed the lie for 35 years. During the past 20 I have been seeking the truth and only recently did I stop saying IMHO replacement theology is a lie and replaced it with: Replacement theology is a lie dropping the IMHO. For those that do not know, Replacement theology is the lie that the Church has replaced Israel in God’s plan.

The church was polluted by Replacement theology early on. Origen and Augustine, early Fathers of the church, were the first to muddy up the scriptures in this way when they arrogantly took on the mantle of Israel for themselves. Martin Luther apparently did not study it and this lead to his anti-Semitism and Hitler. In many ways IMHO it is like a reverse of the circumcision party that led to Acts 15.

This replacement theology lie has lead to the church we have today. Everyone is running around not knowing what is happening in these end times we are in. The truth is The Church, the Bride of Christ, has a role and Israel has a role. Think of men and women, children and parents, husbands and wives, angels and people, dogs and cats, sheep and goats, wheat and tares. All these have roles God invented.

So the solution: Open your Bible, drop your preconceived notions and open your mind, ask God to reveal the truth about all this Israel stuff written in the Bible. The Lord Jesus Christ is central in it all. Gods Grace and Mercy is incredible, He does all the work. Faith and hope and love permeate the entire Bible and the greatest of these is love.

[Cronos]

Actually, Sola Scriptura is used to justify a lot of different things. You need to ask what does Sola scriptura define

1. does sola scriptura say one should believe in something as basic as Jesus was always God (Trinitarian position) or that Jesus Christ was man made God (Oneness PENTECOSTAL Protestant position) or the Angel Michael (Seventh Day Adventist Ellen G White teaching)
2. Does sola scriptura say that there is the REAL Presence of Christ in the Eucharist (Lutheran, some Anglicans, maybe even Methodists), or is it just a symbol (Calvinists)
3. Does sola scriptura say that one MUST talk in tongues (Oneness Pentecostal) to display faith or not?
4. Does sola scriptura say that there should be an episcopate (Lutheran, Anglican) or not (Presbyterians)?
5. Does sola scriptura say that apostolic succession is important (Anglican) or not (others)?
7. Does sola scriptura say that Baptism is for infants and sufficient (Presbyterian etc.) or not (Baptists)?
8. Does sola scriptura say that God pre-damns people to hell (Calvinism) or not (others)?
9. Does sola scriptura say that vestements are ok (or in the silly words of one poster allowing men in dresses and silly hats) (Anglicans, Lutherans, some Methodists, Presbyterians, even Baptists and Pentecostals) or not?
10. Does sola scriptura say that Jesus came only for the salvation of a few (Calvinists) or he was Savior of the world (everyone else)?
11. Does sola scriptura agree or disagree with soul sleep? (Calvin: "As long as (the soul) is in the body it exerts its own powers; but when it quits this prison-house it returns to God, whose presence, it meanwhile enjoys while it rests in the hope of a blessed Resurrection. This rest is its paradise. On the other hand, the spirit of the reprobate, while it waits for the dreadful judgment, is tortured by that anticipation. . .", Psychopannychia,
12. Does sola scriptura agree or disagree with worshipping on a Sunday (Presbyterians, Pentecostals etc.) or not (Seventh Day Adventists)
13. Does sola scriptura agree with the Adventists that one should follow kosher laws or not?
14. Does sola scriptura believe that we still have spiritual gifts like prophecy amongst us (Pentecostals) or not (Presbyterians)
15. Does sola scriptura agree with being "slain in the spirit" (Pentecostalism) or not (Presbyterianism, Lutheranism etc)
16. Does sola scriptura say that Regeneration comes through Baptism (Lutheranism) or not (Baptists)
17. Does sola scriptura say that grace can be resisted (Pentecostalism, Lutheranism, Methodism) or not (Calvinism)
18. Does sola scriptura say that baptism is three-fold (Mennonites) or not?
19. Does sola scriptura say that there is no free will (Calvinism) or that man has free will (Mennonites)
20. Does sola scriptura say that it is faith + works (Mennonites: Menno Simons told the followers of Luther and Calvin: “If you wish to be saved, you must walk in the way of the Lord, hear His Word, and obey it. For nothing avails in heaven nor on earth unto salvation, … not even Christ with His grace, merit, blood, and death, if we are not born of God, … if we do not believe His Word sincerely, and if we do not walk in the light and do right. As John says: …>If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie.’” (Complete Writings of Menno Simons, p. 208)) or not?
21. Does sola scriptura say that there is imputed righteousness (Calvinism) or not (Mennonites)

These are fundamental differences my friend

[Cronos]

The Apostles were indeed Jews who believed in Jesus Christ as the Messiah, as Lord and GOD. The very fact that they acknowledged Him as God separated them from the Sadduccees, Pharisees, Essenes etc.

They were in this essence Christians as distinct from Jews

[Cronos]

Furthermore, quite frankly, the New Testament Church, the Early Christians believed in:

1. Baptism for the remission of sins
2. the Eucharist as the body and blood of Christ

We in orthodoxy believe this, just as the New Testament Church and the Early Christians did -- do you?

[Cronos]

Now remember the Bible is utterly accurate, yet, besides as shown above not giving the exact meaning of certain points, it does not say a lot about some things either - how did Early Christians worship? What were the rules for this worship, the manner in which this worship was carried out?

The Bible does not say anything about this, yet we have an external work dating from 70 AD (Apostolic times), the Didache which does just that (in fact it possibly predates Revelations)

What does it say?

• Chapter 6: "See that no one causes you to err from this way of The Teaching" -- note, the Teaching as handed down from Ultimate Teacher to teacher to teacher.
• Chapter 7: "And concerning baptism, baptize this way: Having first said all these things, baptize into the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, Matthew 28:19 in living water. But if you have not living water, baptize into other water; and if you can not in cold, in warm. But if you have not either, pour out water thrice upon the head into the name of Father and Son and Holy Spirit."
• and more to the point of worship Chapter 9: The Thanksgiving Now concerning the Thanksgiving thus give thanks. First, concerning the cup: We thank you, our Father, for the holy vine of David Your servant, which You made known to us through Jesus Your Servant; to You be the glory for ever. And concerning the broken bread: We thank You, our Father, for the life and knowledge which You made known to us through Jesus Your Servant; to You be the glory for ever. Even as this broken bread was scattered over the hills, and was gathered together and became one, so let Your Church be gathered together from the ends of the earth into Your kingdom; for Yours is the glory and the power through Jesus Christ for ever. But let no one eat or drink of your Thanksgiving (Eucharist), but they who have been baptized into the name of the Lord; for concerning this also the Lord has said, Give not that which is holy to the dogs.
• Chapter 10: "But after you are filled, thus give thanks: We thank You, holy Father, for Your holy name which You caused to tabernacle in our hearts, and for the knowledge and faith and immortality, which You made known to us through Jesus Your Servant; to You be the glory for ever. You, Master almighty, created all things for Your name's sake; You gave food and drink to men for enjoyment, that they might give thanks to You; but to us You freely gave spiritual food and drink and life eternal through Your Servant. Before all things we thank You that You are mighty; to You be the glory for ever. Remember, Lord, Your Church, to deliver it from all evil and to make it perfect in Your love, and gather it from the four winds, sanctified for Your kingdom which You have prepared for it; for Yours is the power and the glory for ever. Let grace come, and let this world pass away. Hosanna to the God (Son) of David! If any one is holy, let him come; if any one is not so, let him repent. Maran atha. Amen. But permit the prophets to make Thanksgiving as much as they desire."
• Chapter 14: But every Lord's day gather yourselves together, and break bread, and give thanksgiving after having confessed your transgressions, that your sacrifice may be pure. But let no one that is at variance with his fellow come together with you, until they be reconciled, that your sacrifice may not be profaned. For this is that which was spoken by the Lord: In every place and time offer to me a pure sacrifice; for I am a great King, says the Lord, and my name is wonderful among the nations.

And this is how we worship today, just as we were taught right back to the Apostles (1 Tim 3:15 15But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.)

[Cronos]

Yet Harold Camping is a proponent of Sola Scriptura.

his very stance on this joke of a doomsday prediction has refuted SS practically

Harold has taken the idea of SOLA scriptura to it's logical extreme

This is what says

Harold Campingo: "we emphatically teach that the whole Bible is the Word of God. We believe that, in the original languages in which the Bible was written, every Word was from the mouth of God, and consequently, is never to be altered and must be obeyed. The Bible alone, and in its entirety, is the Word of God.”

Now,this Sola scriptura guy (Camping) takes the idea that everyone's interpretation is correct and SOLA scripture (which is egotistical and not learning as a community) to it's logical conclusion

The proper way is the orthodox way where we read Scripture in the community of The Church, which is how Christians had always believed for 1500+ years and still do in orthodoxy

Sola scriptura practitioners like Camping take the Bible and separate it from its central doctrine, reads it as a book, as individual componenet instead of the whole and then claim that they got it from Biblical authority for their crazy ideas

Scripture is to be read in context as we in orthodoxy keep repeating (because this is what we have learnt from our elders and all of us through the Holy SPirit have learnt this as a community) but the Sola Scriptura folks keep making fools of themselves with these predictions. The next one is for 2012 May, then 2012 december

[Iscool]

Are you so educationally challenged to limit yourself and not expand educational horizons? Perhaps we need to examine whose comment is goofy.

How many seasoned veterans of English/Latin language studies have poured over these manuscripts and translated them, and you say people should learn Latin to get a better understanding than those who do it for a living??? You're going to improve on them??? Ridiculous...

[bronx2]

And you are conversant in how many languages?

What exactly are the differences between your theological beliefs and that of Harold Camping?

Let us explore your evangelical beliefs!

[marbren]

Satan hates Christians, Satan loves unbelievers, whether they are Jewish or Gentiles. Again my friend, the issue is Jesus and who He is, not DNA matter.

I agree that Satan Hates Christians, How about this: Satan does not care about unbelievers they go to hell anyway. Satan still wants to KILL Jewish unbelievers.

Another point to consider: We all know that during the church age we have three enemies; Satan, the world and our flesh. Did you ever consider that the only enemy during the millennium will be our flesh? Oh, I guess not, you and Camping do not believe in a millennium just judgment day.

[marbren]

Romans 9:6 (New International Version) It is not as though God’s word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel.

Everyone is saved by Grace through faith.

[marbren]

Hi esquirette here is a thread I started partly due to your wondering about what is going on in another thread. Many views are found here. Preterists and partial preterists have not chimed in much however. God bless you as you seek the truth!

[esquirette]

Thanks. I appreciate this.

[SunMan]

Paul teaches what is now called replacement theology. There is a reason the church has taught this doctrine for two thousand years. Paul teaches that all acceptance by God comes through belief in Jesus. Jews and gentiles that believe in Jesus are accepted all others are cut off.
Paul teaches that a man is not a Jew if he is only outwardly a Jew (Rom 2:28, 29). He says that all, Jews and gentiles, that have the faith of Abraham are the children of Abraham (Gal. 3:7).
Jesus told some faithless Jews who thought that God was their father that, actually, the Devil was their father (John 8:42-47).
Paul says that unbelieving Jews were cut off and that believing gentiles were grafted into their place, that could be called replacement (Rom 11:17). Paul taught it.
Now believing Jews and gentiles are one in Christ. God accepts people only on the basis of faith not on the basis of birth.
As to Luther, in his old age he reacted wrongly to blasphemy in the Talmud. He was not anti-Semitic (that is an idea based in racism which Luther did not hold), Luther based his anger against the Jews on the anti-Christian writings in the Talmud not on their race. In fact, like Paul, Luther disagreed with the Jews on their pride of blood descent. (Hitler based his hatred of Jews on blood not on their beliefs.)
Paul says that not only did the Jews kill Jesus and their own prophets, but that they were continuing to persecute the Christians. For that Paul says the wrath of God has come upon them (Thes. 2:15-16). Jewish persecution and blasphemy was recorded in the Talmud, and Luther reacted to it.
Paul says that gentiles that are no longer to be looked down upon by Jews as “uncircumcised.” Through Christ, we are now “citizens of Israel” Eph. 2:11-12). That is why Christians took on the “mantle of Israel”, because God gave it to us though the work of Christ.

[Cvengr]

A more fundamental difference is those who reject what they call Sola Scriptura and place priority in the policies of man ahead of the Word of God.

[Matchett-PI]

"the Church is the Body of Christ and all those that are saved must be in that Body or they are not saved. The reason is that Body has already suffered, died and rose again. If you aren’t in that Body, you are still an enemy of God and will suffer eternal punishment. For a Jew to be at peace with God, they must believe on Jesus and be baptized for the remission of their sins, then they will be part of the true Israel of God. This applies to all Gentiles as well. your statement that those who accept Christ during the Tribulation will be believers but will not be part of the Church is so unbiblical to be laughable. again, spiritual blindness to what the Church is. .."

Exactly. bttt

There is no distinction between Jew and Greek...there is only ONE olive tree

[Belteshazzar]

GiovannaNicoletta wrote:
“That is all that is required to understand. That while God has taken for Himself a people from among the Gentiles, Scripture is inarguable that God is not finished with the Jews, and has not thrown them to the side in favor of the Church. The Church and Israel are two separate entities with two separate purposes in the economy of God.”

I’m sorry, but what you say in this final paragraph of your kind reply to my two questions I just cannot reconcile with the Holy Scriptures. In saying that, please understand what I am not saying. I am NOT asserting that: 1) God has thrown the Jews to the side in favor of the church. That is the wrong way to speak of these things. God never throws to the side anyone who is His by faith. Nor does the grace of God fail to extend over all. The testimony of the Christ Himself makes that clear: “For God so loved the world ...” NOR am I saying that: 2) God has finished with the Jews. That too would not be the right way to speak of such things.

But I cannot reconcile the separateness you assert regarding Israel and the church with the testimony of the Bible. Jew and Gentile are one in Christ. On the other side of the coin I also cannot reconcile with the testimony of the Holy Scriptures the oft asserted claim of Roman Catholicism that the church came into existence in 33 A.D. That too is the wrong way to speak of such things. The church and believing Israel are one and the same. The only thing that distinguishes one from the other is the incarnation of the Christ.

The church, which the Scriptures themselves define as the community of those who are Christ’s, whether they are in the victorious wing (heaven) or the militant wing (still breathing on earth), has existed from the fall into sin until today, and will endure until the end of time itself. The church’s first confession of faith in the Christ came from the mouth of one who was neither Jew nor Gentile, but the mother of all the living: “I have gotten a man, the LORD.” (Genesis 4:1) And, yes, that is Martin Luther’s translation. And he was correct. She understood that the promise given in Genesis 3:15 entailed God becoming Man. That has always been the faith of the children of God. The church’s first (recorded) gathering in faith to worship the God of grace together was a gathering of those who were neither Jew nor Gentile: The Seth Adamson family together with (presumeably) the Adam Godson family “began to call on the name of the LORD,” (Genesis 4:26) while the Cain Adamson family (presumeably) absented themselves in their unbelief.

The promise that God would become Man in order to redeem humanity from sin, death, and hell is what I would term the scandal of particularity. That is, if God was to become Man, He had to become a particular human being, of a particular sex, born of a particular mother, descended of a particular race, the heir of a particular culture, the speaker of a particular language, and living in a particular place. In other words God had to decide upon and implement the particulars. It could have been, I suppose in theory, any race. But for whatever reason God in His wisdom chose as He did. For which all of humanity should give thanks. Why? He did things the way He did them because He so loved the world. That is all scriptural.

The line of descent He chose had the high honor and the great burden, for that is what the life of the faithful on earth always is, for disciples are never above their Master, of both bearing the Messianic Seed and preserving the Messianic promise, that is, the Holy Scriptures. For all which we simply thank God. Rome has chosen to accord Mary an honor above even that which God gave her. Dispensationists of many stripes have chosen to give Israel an honor above even that which God gave them. Neither is helpful; and both in the end detract from the honor that belongs to God alone.

Blessed be Mary, who indeed is honored above all women. Blessed be Israel, which is honored above all nations. But the glory and honor of each fades to nothing in the light of God’s glory. Thus the saying: SOLI DEO GLORIA!

[marbren]

Thank you for your post. It is a good summary of the replacement theology position. And good info on Luther.

[marbren]

Hi Matchett-PI Thanks for your post, I do not think the partial preteist amill position has been discussed yet.

[marbren]

http://www.cjfm.org/

here is a neat Christian Jewish ministry.

[Matchett-PI]

"Satan hates Christians, Satan loves unbelievers, whether they are Jewish or Gentiles. Again my friend, the issue is Jesus and who He is, not DNA matter.

Exactly.

It's either Moses or Christ

<>

How odd to think that Christians who believe that the Church is composed of “Jew and Greek” alike (Romans 10:12) are sometimes suspected of anti-Semitism by those who believe that in the future, earthly millennium the Jews will be rewarded with earth while pre-Rapture Christians will achieve heaven, the grand prize.

Instead of being incarnational, history becomes fatalistic; instead of being sacramental, the material realm is cursed, even evil.

This dualism is both startling and familiar, neo-Gnostic and Manichaean.

While fighting against the “New Age” movement and its dualistic errors, >dispensationalists unwittingly embrace a similar error, pitting the spiritual against the physical and the heavenly against the earthly, as though they were never reconciled in the person of Jesus Christ.

<>

The placing of the nation of Israel into the place rightfully occupied by Jesus Christ as the central figure of prophecy and eschatology is pop-dispensationalism’s own brand of replacement theology

[Matchett-PI]

"i was suprised to find a tactic of the left would be used on a conservative site, but i think everyone sees thru such tactics."

They didn't come up with it themselves, they're merely parroting the tactics, paradigm and narrative of their GURUS