Posted on 04/20/2011 12:07:28 PM PDT by AnalogReigns
Catholics do not understand that Evangelical Protestants have small doctrinal differences ..sometimes less than one finds in members of Romanism ... we share in common those doctrines that impact on salvation and scripture..That makes us Christian family ... whether one is Charismatic or presbyterian or baptist etc.. we all share Christ as Savior and Lord..
It amuses me when Catholics think they are spitting out a dirty word when they say sects.. Christianity was considered a sect by the jews during the days of Acts..
This is exactly right, which is the root of why I said it's understandable that many poorly catechized catholics leave the church for a better worship experience.
It is possible to have elevated liturgy with the Novus Ordo, it's just seldom done. How many catholics can explain what the "propers" of the mass are? I am guessing very few - maybe 0.1%.
IMHO the reason the Extraordinary form (Tridentine Latin Mass) is almost universally well celebrated today is that those who care enough to seek it out (laity) or learn to celebrate it (priests) are likely to want to have an elevated liturgy to begin with.
It depends on what you mean by how. The content certainly matters. The manner in which the content is delivered--whether you have a pastor in a suit or wearing blue jeans, for instance--is irrelevant. Faith, not works.
Incidentally, if you're so inclined, our Pastor did a sermon on this very topic not long ago. If you want to hear it from the horse's mouth, so to speak, I'd be happy to send you the link.
RnMomof7:
And your opinion proves there was no apostolic succession.
The opinion of St. Clement of Rome, St. Ireneaus of Lyons, St. Cyprian of Carthage, St. Jerome, St. Augustine is against you. I will side with those great theologians whose writings against the heretics of the early Church stand as a witness to legitimate and orthodox Doctrine.
On the question of Apostolic Succession, Prof. JND Kelly [Anglican-Church of England] writes:
“[W]here in practice was [the] apostolic testimony or tradition to be found? . . . The most obvious answer was that the apostles had committed it orally to the Church, where it had been handed down from generation to generation. . . . Unlike the alleged secret tradition of the Gnostics, it was entirely public and open, having been entrusted by the apostles to their successors, and by these in turn to those who followed them, and was visible in the Church for all who cared to look for it” (See Early Christian Doctrines, p. 37).
For the early Fathers, “the identity of the oral tradition with the original revelation is guaranteed by the unbroken succession of bishops in the great sees going back lineally to the apostles. . . . [A]n additional safeguard is supplied by the Holy Spirit, for the message committed was to the Church, and the Church is the home of the Spirit. Indeed, the Church’s bishops are . . . Spirit-endowed men who have been vouchsafed ‘an infallible charism of truth’” (Early Christian Doctrines).
Prof Kelly is considered one of the leading Patristic scholars of the 20th century and his work can be found at Amazon.com
So I leave all the readers of this forum to make a decision based on the testimony of the CHurch Fathers and Professor Kelly or RnMomof7 when thinking about your statement “the truth is there is no apostolic succession in the NT church”
tsk, tsk,
I used to go to a mass on Saturday and a protestant service on Sundays ... Then one day I realized I believed little of Catholic doctrine anymore so why was I going to a catholic mass?? I finally left..
As a non catholic who does attend mass, the old style doesn’t appeal to me either. I’ve attended Anglican Use masses which I believe are closer to the old mass except in English. They’re lovely but they don’t appeal to me at all. Again its a theology thing. Since I don’t believe in the sacrifice that you are seeing, I go to church to worship God. The traditional style is very elegant but is more like eating other people worship than participating.
Cultural bias, I’m sure, but I don’t feel properly churched without a few good rousing hymns and some improv praying.
Only those that were never saved..intellectual or cultural protestants..
Only those that were never saved..intellectual or cultural protestants..
I attend with my husband. He attends the Presbyterian church with me. We both think it’d more important to attend together than to worry if one of us isn’t getting enough out of a particular service.
Of course these days I have to leave halfway through to take the toddler to the car...
I'm talking about considerably more than the pastor's sartorial tastes. I've also known enough Protestants, and enough Protestant pastors, to know how painstakingly pastors are judged by their congregations on every aspect of their preaching.
And most Catholics do not know Christ in a salvific way..they do not have the most basic understanding of Hermeneutics ... The word of God low in their priority... I do not think God will ask what the "propers" are.. He will ask you why you should be admitted to heaven ..what would you say to that ?
Sweeping judgments much?
How will your child be raised?
LOL ... some of whom spent their "never saved, intellectual, cultural" protestant lives behind pulpits in "Bible-believing" Protestant churches.
I know some of those folks; they're friends of mine. They're anything but how you describe them to be.
I don’t think God will ask what your own personal “hermeneutics” are either.
Following is the text of a statement issued by Bishop Charles H. Helmsing of Kansas City - St. Joseph (Mo) Diocese. The statement pertains to the National Catholic Reporter, which is published in the diocese and is an outgrowth of its diocesan newspaper
The Catholic Reporter, formerly the official newspaper of the Kansas City - St. Joseph, was begun by my predecessor under a policy of editorial freedom. That policy of editorial freedom [I] endorsed on my appointment as bishop of Kansas City - St. Joseph. When the National Catholic Reporter was launched, that original policy of editorial freedom was announced as basic to the new publication.
At all times it was presumed that the policy of editorial freedom was none other than that legitimate liberty declared and defended by the Second Vatican Council in its Declaration on Religious Liberty, further defined in the conciliar Decree on Communications, and, likewise, defended in the Constitution on the Church in the Modern World. It could not imply that pseudo-freedom from man's obligations to his Creator, Redeemer and Sanctifier in vogue under the standard of the 19th century liberalism. It could not imply, as a conciliar declaration on religious liberty clearly states, freedom in the moral order. As Cardinal Koenig pointed out in his recent address to editors, there is a legitimate freedom of opinion to be exercised by the Catholic press so long as it is absolutely loyal to the Church's teachings. If an editor is to merit the name "Catholic," he must remember "to think with the Church."
As long as the Catholic editor carries the name Catholic, he can never forget that he is a teacher of Christ's revelation. What he writes necessarily touches on faith -- that gift of the Holy Spirit which "we carry in earthen vessels" and by which we accept Christ, the Word of God Incarnate, and His revelation.
The Catholic editor must manifest a reverence which must shine through in his attitude and in his every expression. The Gospel is clear on the destructive effects of ridicule, for example, in recounting of the taunts hurled at Simon Peter: "You also were with Jesus of Nazareth," and their effects on him who, once converted, was to confirm his brethren.
As the editors of the National Catholic Reporter know, I have tried as their pastor, responsible for their eternal welfare, and that of those whom they influence, to guide them on a responsible course in harmony with Catholic teachings. When private conferences were of no avail, as is well known, I had to issue a public reprimand for their policy of crusading against the Church's teachings on the transmission of human life, and against the Gospel values of sacred virginity and dedicated celibacy as taught by the Church.
NOW, AS a last resort, I am forced as bishop to issue a condemnation of the National Catholic Reporter for its disregard and denial of the most sacred values of our Catholic faith. Within recent months the National Catholic Reporter has expressed itself in belittling the basic truths expressed in the Creed of Pope Paul VI; it has made itself a platform for the airing of heretical views on the Church and its divinely constituted structure, as taught by the First and Second Vatican Councils. Vehemently to be reprobated was the airing in recent editions of an attack on the perpetual virginity of the Blessed Virgin Mary and the virgin birth of Christ, by one of its contributors.
Finally, it has given lengthy space to a blasphemous and heretical attack on the Vicar of Christ. It is difficult to see how well instructed writers who deliberately deny and ridicule dogmas of our Catholic faith can possibly escape the guilt of the crime defined in Canon 1325 on heresy, and how they can escape the penalties of automatic excommunication entailed thereby.
In fairness to our Catholic people, I hereby issue an official condemnation of the National Catholic Reporter. Furthermore, I send this communication to my brother bishops, and make known to the priests, religious and laity of the nation my views on the poisonous character of this publication.
As a bishop, a member of the college of bishops, and one in union with the head of the college, Christ's Vicar on earth, I proclaim with my brother bishops that the Church is, indeed, always in need of reform. This reform is a matter of putting on the mind of Christ, as St. Paul declared, through our contemplation of Christ in His teachings and through our loyalty to the teachings of the Church so painstakingly expressed in recent years in the constitutions, decrees and declarations of the Second Vatican Council.
The status of the world when our Lord came was a deplorable one. We are not surprised that the status of man, wounded by original sin, remains deplorable as long as he does not heed the voice of Christ and his authoritative teacher, his Church. Sociological studies, according to modern techniques, can help us appreciate the status quo -- the exact thinking and acting and attitudes of our people. For this we are grateful. But it is a total reversal of our Divine Lord's policy to imagine for a moment that the disclosure of attitudes through such surveys becomes the norm of human conduct or thinking.
Christ and His apostles preached first and foremost penance, metanoia, the change of mind and heart. The Church continues to do so today, but it finds itself increasingly more frustrated in its teaching of the ideals of our Lord by the type of reporting, editorializing and ridicule that have become the week-after-week fare of the National Catholic Reporter.
IN AS MUCH as the National Catholic Reporter does not reflect the teaching of the Church, but on the contrary, has openly and deliberately opposed this teaching. I ask the editors in all honesty to drop the term "Catholic" from their masthead. By retaining it they deceive their Catholic readers and do a great disservice to ecumenism by being responsible for the false irenicism of watering down Catholic teachings.
I further ask the editors and the board of directors, for the love of God and their fellow men, to change their misguided and evil policy; for it is evident to me that they have already caused untold harm to the faith and morals not only of our laity, but of too many of our priests and religious.
I make this statement with apostolic freedom as given by our Lord to His followers; I make it conscious of the heavy burden that is mine as a bishop, as one enjoined by the Holy Spirit through the pen of St. Paul: "Reprove, entreat, rebuke in all patience and doctrine; for there will come a time when they will not endure the sound doctrines; but having itching ears, will heap up to themselves teachers according to their own lust, and they will turn away their hearing from the truth and will turn aside rather to fables." (2 Tim. 4:2-4)
I think the author misses the point entirely. The liturgy is the expression of belief. As they say: "lex credendi est lex orandi." We must simply acknowledge that those who left do so because they do not believe what is professed in the liturgy. Simply keeping Catholics in the pews is rather pointless if they don't believe the faith professed in the liturgy. Making the litury more "fun" and "interesting" is beside the point if it does not ultimately express the ancient faith of the Church - which seems to be what many Catholic liberals want.
It is no wonder fewer Catholics believe in transubstantiation today, and it is probably the case that those who left did not; for if those who left had and did, they never would have left the Catholic Church - no matter how bad they perceived the liturgy to be - for the empty, merely symbolic passing of bread in protestant churches.
There are probably multiple reasons for this apostasy, some of the causes the author of the article seems to deny - but I suggest poor catechesis is near the top, if not at the top. The very argument over good Latin translations into English is an important, needed step to insure the maxim" already quoted - "lex credendi est lex orandi." Thus, it goes to the heart of the problem the author does not seem to comprehend, having gotten lost in statistics.
Nowhere in Scripture do you find God asking anyone that question. Salvation is not based on answering a quiz correctly.
Yes, that's the party line.
Well we’re homeschooling so her religious education will be from us and not any church. Probably we’ll do Sunday School when she’s that age.... And we had long long talks about baptism before choosing the PCA church we attend. All in all religious upbringing was something we’ve discussed white a bit before getting married.... We were aware that it wouldn’t be exactly easy....
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