Posted on 04/14/2011 9:21:51 AM PDT by marshmallow
The Ascension of Isaiah
“[T]he report concerning the child was noised abroad in Bethlehem. Some said, ‘The Virgin Mary has given birth before she was married two months.’ And many said, ‘She has not given birth; the midwife has not gone up to her, and we heard no cries of pain’” (Ascension of Isaiah 11 [A.D. 70]).
The Odes of Solomon
“So the Virgin became a mother with great mercies. And she labored and bore the Son, but without pain, because it did not occur without purpose. And she did not seek a midwife, because he caused her to give life. She bore as a strong man, with will . . . ” (Odes of Solomon 19 [A.D. 80])
Justin Martyr
“[Jesus] became man by the Virgin so that the course which was taken by disobedience in the beginning through the agency of the serpent might be also the very course by which it would be put down. Eve, a virgin and undefiled, conceived the word of the serpent and bore disobedience and death. But the Virgin Mary received faith and joy when the angel Gabriel announced to her the glad tidings that the Spirit of the Lord would come upon her and the power of the Most High would overshadow her, for which reason the Holy One being born of her is the Son of God. And she replied ‘Be it done unto me according to your word’ [Luke 1:38]” (Dialogue with Trypho the Jew 100 [A.D. 155]).
Irenaeus
“Consequently, then, Mary the Virgin is found to be obedient, saying, ‘Behold, O Lord, your handmaid; be it done to me according to your word.’ Eve, however, was disobedient, and, when yet a virgin, she did not obey. Just as she, who was then still a virgin although she had Adam for a husband—for in paradise they were both naked but were not ashamed; for, having been created only a short time, they had no understanding of the procreation of children, and it was necessary that they first come to maturity before beginning to multiply—having become disobedient, was made the cause of death for herself and for the whole human race; so also Mary, betrothed to a man but nevertheless still a virgin, being obedient, was made the cause of salvation for herself and for the whole human race. . . . Thus, the knot of Eve’s disobedience was loosed by the obedience of Mary. What the virgin Eve had bound in unbelief, the Virgin Mary loosed through faith” (Against Heresies 3:22:24 [A.D. 189]).
“The Lord then was manifestly coming to his own things, and was sustaining them by means of that creation that is supported by himself. He was making a recapitulation of that disobedience that had occurred in connection with a tree, through the obedience that was upon a tree [i.e., the cross]. Furthermore, the original deception was to be done away with—the deception by which that virgin Eve (who was already espoused to a man) was unhappily misled. That this was to be overturned was happily announced through means of the truth by the angel to the Virgin Mary (who was also [espoused] to a man). . . . So if Eve disobeyed God, yet Mary was persuaded to be obedient to God. In this way, the Virgin Mary might become the advocate of the virgin Eve. And thus, as the human race fell into bondage to death by means of a virgin, so it is rescued by a virgin. Virginal disobedience has been balanced in the opposite scale by virginal obedience. For in the same way, the sin of the first created man received amendment by the correction of the First-Begotten” (ibid., 5:19:1 [A.D. 189]).
Tertullian
“And again, lest I depart from my argumentation on the name of Adam: Why is Christ called Adam by the apostle [Paul], if as man he was not of that earthly origin? But even reason defends this conclusion, that God recovered his image and likeness by a procedure similar to that in which he had been robbed of it by the devil. It was while Eve was still a virgin that the word of the devil crept in to erect an edifice of death. Likewise through a virgin the Word of God was introduced to set up a structure of life. Thus what had been laid waste in ruin by this sex was by the same sex reestablished in salvation. Eve had believed the serpent; Mary believed Gabriel. That which the one destroyed by believing, the other, by believing, set straight” (The Flesh of Christ 17:4 [A.D. 210].
Pseudo-Melito
“If therefore it might come to pass by the power of your grace, it has appeared right to us your servants that, as you, having overcome death, do reign in glory, so you should raise up the body of your Mother and take her with you, rejoicing, into heaven. Then said the Savior [Jesus]: ‘Be it done according to your will’” (The Passing of the Virgin 16:2–17 [A.D. 300]).
Ephraim the Syrian
“You alone and your Mother are more beautiful than any others, for there is no blemish in you nor any stains upon your Mother. Who of my children can compare in beauty to these?” (Nisibene Hymns 27:8 [A.D. 361]).
Ambrose of Milan
“Mary’s life should be for you a pictorial image of virginity. Her life is like a mirror reflecting the face of chastity and the form of virtue. Therein you may find a model for your own life . . . showing what to improve, what to imitate, what to hold fast to” (The Virgins 2:2:6 [A.D. 377]).
“The first thing which kindles ardor in learning is the greatness of the teacher. What is greater [to teach by example] than the Mother of God? What more glorious than she whom Glory Itself chose? What more chaste than she who bore a body without contact with another body? For why should I speak of her other virtues? She was a virgin not only in body but also in mind, who stained the sincerity of its disposition by no guile, who was humble in heart, grave in speech, prudent in mind, sparing of words, studious in reading, resting her hope not on uncertain riches, but on the prayer of the poor, intent on work, modest in discourse; wont to seek not man but God as the judge of her thoughts, to injure no one, to have goodwill towards all, to rise up before her elders, not to envy her equals, to avoid boastfulness, to follow reason, to love virtue. When did she pain her parents even by a look? When did she disagree with her neighbors? When did she despise the lowly? When did she avoid the needy?” (ibid., 2:2:7).
“Come, then, and search out your sheep, not through your servants or hired men, but do it yourself. Lift me up bodily and in the flesh, which is fallen in Adam. Lift me up not from Sarah but from Mary, a virgin not only undefiled, but a virgin whom grace had made inviolate, free of every stain of sin” (Commentary on Psalm 118:22–30 [A.D. 387]).
Augustine
“Our Lord . . . was not averse to males, for he took the form of a male, nor to females, for of a female he was born. Besides, there is a great mystery here: that just as death comes to us through a woman, life is born to us through a woman; that the devil, defeated, would be tormented by each nature, feminine and masculine, as he had taken delight in the defection of both” (Christian Combat 22:24 [A.D. 396]).
“That one woman is both mother and virgin, not in spirit only but even in body. In spirit she is mother, not of our head, who is our Savior himself—of whom all, even she herself, are rightly called children of the bridegroom—but plainly she is the mother of us who are his members, because by love she has cooperated so that the faithful, who are the members of that head, might be born in the Church. In body, indeed, she is the Mother of that very head” (Holy Virginity 6:6 [A.D. 401]).
…
“Having excepted the holy Virgin Mary, concerning whom, on account of the honor of the Lord, I wish to have absolutely no question when treating of sins—for how do we know what abundance of grace for the total overcoming of sin was conferred upon her, who merited to conceive and bear him in whom there was no sin?—so, I say, with the exception of the Virgin, if we could have gathered together all those holy men and women, when they were living here, and had asked them whether they were without sin, what do we suppose would have been their answer?” (Nature and Grace 36:42 [A.D. 415]).
Timothy of Jerusalem
“Therefore the Virgin is immortal to this day, seeing that he who had dwelt in her transported her to the regions of her assumption” (Homily on Simeon and Anna [A.D. 400]).
John the Theologian
“[T]he Lord said to his Mother, ‘Let your heart rejoice and be glad, for every favor and every gift has been given to you from my Father in heaven and from me and from the Holy Spirit. Every soul that calls upon your name shall not be ashamed, but shall find mercy and comfort and support and confidence, both in the world that now is and in that which is to come, in the presence of my Father in the heavens’” (The Falling Asleep of Mary [A.D. 400]).
“And from that time forth all knew that the spotless and precious body had been transferred to paradise” (ibid.).
Gregory of Tours
“The course of this life having been completed by blessed Mary, when now she would be called from the world, all the apostles came together from their various regions to her house. And when they had heard that she was about to be taken from the world, they kept watch together with her. And behold, the Lord Jesus came with his angels, and, taking her soul, he gave it over to the angel Michael and withdrew. At daybreak, however, the apostles took up her body on a bier and placed it in a tomb, and they guarded it, expecting the Lord to come. And behold, again the Lord stood by them; the holy body having been received, he commanded that it be taken in a cloud into paradise, where now, rejoined to the soul, [Mary’s body] rejoices with the Lord’s chosen ones and is in the enjoyment of the good of an eternity that will never end” (Eight Books of Miracles 1:4 [A.D. 584]).
“But Mary, the glorious Mother of Christ, who is believed to be a virgin both before and after she bore him, has, as we said above, been translated into paradise, amid the singing of the angelic choirs, whither the Lord preceded her” (ibid., 1:8).
AS WELL AS
ignoring Holy Spirit’s attempts to lead them into all truth about The Word and life in Christ.
Scripture and the sayings of the Church Fathers are NOT co-equal.
Some of the Fathers' saying were good...some not inspired at all.
However, Scripture is ALWAYS inspired. Therefore, when a Father says something contradictory to Scripture it needs to be thrown out.
INDEED.
Incredible.
Rom 3:23 KJV - For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Rom 5:12 KJV - Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
Ahhhh......but we do know this.
It's to be understood in the light of tradition [see Church Fathers above]and in concert with the rest of Scripture.
First of all, the angel Gabriel greeted Mary as "full of grace". One who has sinned is not "full of grace". Ever. Secondly, we know that a new born baby which dies in its mother's arms has not "sinned" in the sense in which St. Paul is speaking. Neither did Jesus "sin".
Thus the word "all" as used by St. Paul is meant as a generalized term for humanity as a whole.
The word "all" can have different meanings in Greek as it does in English.
There are examples elsewhere in Romans. In verse 1:29 the KJV reads, "being filled with all unrighteousness.....,". Other versions of the Bible use ".....every kind of wickedness...."
Again, in the same book, Paul writes that "all Israel will be saved," (11:26). However, we know that many will not be saved. Also, Paul describes members of the Roman church as "....filled with all knowledge...." (cf. 1 Cor 1:5 in KJV), which clearly cannot be taken literally as this would make us like God.
Scripture must be understood in its entirety.
Which is why the Church Fathers are so important. They give us a window into the authentic meaning of Scripture.
Did Jesus sin?
Do people who have mental defects sin?
Here is where non Catholics chide Catholics for saying “all” doesn’t mean “all”.
Well, either the statements from Romans you posted are indeed a form if hyperbole, or else you and all the others who simply (seemingly) LOVE to go to those verses are claiming not only do people who are severely mentally retarded commit sin, but Jesus Christ Himself was a sinner.
After all, either “all” means “all” or it doesn’t. < /sarc>
Furthermore, your assertion that Scripture, which is directly inspired by God, can somehow not trump the traditions of men, who are by their very being fallible creatures, is ludicrous in the extreme and shows your own unthinking adherence to a dogma that is not Biblical.
Furthermore, you insist that Scripture divorced from tradition breeds division within Christendom, yet you do err in your understanding of Scripture. Christendom, by it's very nature, cannot be weakened or fractured due to it's central focus upon Jesus Christ, who is God in the Flesh. The same God who caused Paul to say this in Ephesians;
Eph 4:1-7 KJV - [1] I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called, [2] With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love; [3] Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. [4] [There is] one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; [5] One Lord, one faith, one baptism, [6] One God and Father of all, who [is] above all, and through all, and in you all. [7] But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.also told James that;
[17] Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning. - Jam 1:17 KJV.
For you to insist that Christendom can be fractured and weakened by the actions of mankind is insane and gives a fallen creature much more credit than he's due.
Christendom, composed of those believers who place their trust in Jesus Christ and HIM ALONE, has never weakened. They are the Church that Jesus was talking about when He said;
[16] And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. [17] And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed [it] unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. [18] And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. - Mat 16:16-18 KJV
And while I'm at it, let's remind folks what Christ Himself said about traditions.
[1] Then came together unto him the Pharisees, and certain of the scribes, which came from Jerusalem. [2] And when they saw some of his disciples eat bread with defiled, that is to say, with unwashen, hands, they found fault. [3] For the Pharisees, and all the Jews, except they wash [their] hands oft, eat not, holding the tradition of the elders. [4] And [when they come] from the market, except they wash, they eat not. And many other things there be, which they have received to hold, [as] the washing of cups, and pots, brasen vessels, and of tables. [5] Then the Pharisees and scribes asked him, Why walk not thy disciples according to the tradition of the elders, but eat bread with unwashen hands? [6] He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with [their] lips, but their heart is far from me. [7] Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching [for] doctrines the commandments of men. [8] For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, [as] the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do. [9] And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition. [10] For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death: [11] But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, [It is] Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; [he shall be free]. [12] And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother; [13] Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye. - Mar 7:1-13 KJV
See post # 64.
No, get it straight.
Paul wrote the words. Just like the evangelists wrote the Gospels.
Interpretation and as a result of that understanding (or lack thereof) always comes from the reader, not the author, when the author is no longer with us.
That's true for any document.
That's why one man reads the US Constitution to mean one thing and another man understands it to mean something different. As a result of this, we have appointed a body of men to rule on what it actually means.
It's the same for Scripture.
And unlike the US Supreme Court, the Church is guided by the Holy Spirit and is infallible in this matter.
She had no original sin because of the merits of Jesus her Savior.
More Roman Catholic tradition disguised as part of the Gospel.
Jesus had no sin because the sin nature which is passed down from Adam was not passed down to Christ. That is why it’s so important that Mary had known no man when Christ was conceived. That fact was the proof that the sin nature had not been passed down to Christ.
That sin nature is what prevents us from being capable of being sinless, and it’s absence is what allowed Christ to become the perfect, sinless atonement in our place.
Did somebody force you to read this thread and get exposed to dogma?
Catholicism and Mormon are very different. Starting with the Christology of those respective faiths.
All I see in post #64 is a post of errors.
Only Christ was sinless, and only because did not inherit the sin nature as all other men do. Children who die before reaching the point where they can accept or reject Christ are judged by God according to His wisdom but even if they are cast into hell, which I don’t think is the case, God is justified in doing so because of our fallen nature.
I would bring up the point that the Bible itself answers the question.... The fact she and Joseph were angry at the young Jesus forbeing in the temple for days without them knowing it, shows Mary was not perfect and sinless ...(1) If, in fact, we look to the Bible for answers, "angry" is not in the Bible. 'Being angry' is an extra-scriptural interpretation of this passage. I'll grant you 'astonished' and 'anxious' (NIV), but not angry.
(2) For argument's sake, even if 'angry,' what makes anger per se a sin? Was not Jesus 'angry' -- in the extra-biblical sense, of course -- when he 'cleansed the temple'? If so, can only divine persons be 'angry'?
... she would have known exactly where he was because she would have been sinless and perfect and understood this being that way
3) I'm curious about equating sinlessness and omniscience. Is ignorance sinful?
God bless.
The misunderstanding arises from the older meaning of the verb "to pray" - it originally meant simply to ask. When we "pray" to a saint (or to the Blessed Virgin), we are not worshiping that saint - we are simply asking him or her to join us in praying to Jesus.
At the end of the Rosary, the final prayer makes this quite clear:
"Pray for us, holy Mother of God, that we may be made worthy of the promises of Christ."
"Let us pray [i.e. we haven't been praying in the newer sense before].
"O God, who by the life, death, and resurrection of thine only begotten Son, hath gained for us the fruits of everlasting life: grant that we, in meditating upon the mysteries of the holy Rosary, may imitate what they contain and obtain what they promise; through the same Christ our Lord. Amen."
It's that time thing again. The great saints in heaven stand outside time, and they can be asked to pray with us and for us, just as we might ask a particularly righteous friend on earth to join us in prayer.
How is it provocative to show what the fathers of the early Church believed? Just becuase your sect decided to jettison 1500 years of Christian belief regarding Mary does not mean all share in that error.
Orthodox and Catholic rightly give Theotokos the honor that is due to her and hold fast to the constant teaching that she was without sin.
Now since the Orthodox do not have the same belief regarding Original Sin they do not believe in the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception but they do believe she was without personal sin. The matter of the Blessed Virgin and ancestral sin I am not qualified to comment on.
"It's the usual muddle about times, Pole."
- C.S. Lewis
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