Posted on 04/14/2011 9:21:51 AM PDT by marshmallow
The Ascension of Isaiah
“[T]he report concerning the child was noised abroad in Bethlehem. Some said, ‘The Virgin Mary has given birth before she was married two months.’ And many said, ‘She has not given birth; the midwife has not gone up to her, and we heard no cries of pain’” (Ascension of Isaiah 11 [A.D. 70]).
The Odes of Solomon
“So the Virgin became a mother with great mercies. And she labored and bore the Son, but without pain, because it did not occur without purpose. And she did not seek a midwife, because he caused her to give life. She bore as a strong man, with will . . . ” (Odes of Solomon 19 [A.D. 80])
Justin Martyr
“[Jesus] became man by the Virgin so that the course which was taken by disobedience in the beginning through the agency of the serpent might be also the very course by which it would be put down. Eve, a virgin and undefiled, conceived the word of the serpent and bore disobedience and death. But the Virgin Mary received faith and joy when the angel Gabriel announced to her the glad tidings that the Spirit of the Lord would come upon her and the power of the Most High would overshadow her, for which reason the Holy One being born of her is the Son of God. And she replied ‘Be it done unto me according to your word’ [Luke 1:38]” (Dialogue with Trypho the Jew 100 [A.D. 155]).
Irenaeus
“Consequently, then, Mary the Virgin is found to be obedient, saying, ‘Behold, O Lord, your handmaid; be it done to me according to your word.’ Eve, however, was disobedient, and, when yet a virgin, she did not obey. Just as she, who was then still a virgin although she had Adam for a husband—for in paradise they were both naked but were not ashamed; for, having been created only a short time, they had no understanding of the procreation of children, and it was necessary that they first come to maturity before beginning to multiply—having become disobedient, was made the cause of death for herself and for the whole human race; so also Mary, betrothed to a man but nevertheless still a virgin, being obedient, was made the cause of salvation for herself and for the whole human race. . . . Thus, the knot of Eve’s disobedience was loosed by the obedience of Mary. What the virgin Eve had bound in unbelief, the Virgin Mary loosed through faith” (Against Heresies 3:22:24 [A.D. 189]).
“The Lord then was manifestly coming to his own things, and was sustaining them by means of that creation that is supported by himself. He was making a recapitulation of that disobedience that had occurred in connection with a tree, through the obedience that was upon a tree [i.e., the cross]. Furthermore, the original deception was to be done away with—the deception by which that virgin Eve (who was already espoused to a man) was unhappily misled. That this was to be overturned was happily announced through means of the truth by the angel to the Virgin Mary (who was also [espoused] to a man). . . . So if Eve disobeyed God, yet Mary was persuaded to be obedient to God. In this way, the Virgin Mary might become the advocate of the virgin Eve. And thus, as the human race fell into bondage to death by means of a virgin, so it is rescued by a virgin. Virginal disobedience has been balanced in the opposite scale by virginal obedience. For in the same way, the sin of the first created man received amendment by the correction of the First-Begotten” (ibid., 5:19:1 [A.D. 189]).
Tertullian
“And again, lest I depart from my argumentation on the name of Adam: Why is Christ called Adam by the apostle [Paul], if as man he was not of that earthly origin? But even reason defends this conclusion, that God recovered his image and likeness by a procedure similar to that in which he had been robbed of it by the devil. It was while Eve was still a virgin that the word of the devil crept in to erect an edifice of death. Likewise through a virgin the Word of God was introduced to set up a structure of life. Thus what had been laid waste in ruin by this sex was by the same sex reestablished in salvation. Eve had believed the serpent; Mary believed Gabriel. That which the one destroyed by believing, the other, by believing, set straight” (The Flesh of Christ 17:4 [A.D. 210].
Pseudo-Melito
“If therefore it might come to pass by the power of your grace, it has appeared right to us your servants that, as you, having overcome death, do reign in glory, so you should raise up the body of your Mother and take her with you, rejoicing, into heaven. Then said the Savior [Jesus]: ‘Be it done according to your will’” (The Passing of the Virgin 16:2–17 [A.D. 300]).
Ephraim the Syrian
“You alone and your Mother are more beautiful than any others, for there is no blemish in you nor any stains upon your Mother. Who of my children can compare in beauty to these?” (Nisibene Hymns 27:8 [A.D. 361]).
Ambrose of Milan
“Mary’s life should be for you a pictorial image of virginity. Her life is like a mirror reflecting the face of chastity and the form of virtue. Therein you may find a model for your own life . . . showing what to improve, what to imitate, what to hold fast to” (The Virgins 2:2:6 [A.D. 377]).
“The first thing which kindles ardor in learning is the greatness of the teacher. What is greater [to teach by example] than the Mother of God? What more glorious than she whom Glory Itself chose? What more chaste than she who bore a body without contact with another body? For why should I speak of her other virtues? She was a virgin not only in body but also in mind, who stained the sincerity of its disposition by no guile, who was humble in heart, grave in speech, prudent in mind, sparing of words, studious in reading, resting her hope not on uncertain riches, but on the prayer of the poor, intent on work, modest in discourse; wont to seek not man but God as the judge of her thoughts, to injure no one, to have goodwill towards all, to rise up before her elders, not to envy her equals, to avoid boastfulness, to follow reason, to love virtue. When did she pain her parents even by a look? When did she disagree with her neighbors? When did she despise the lowly? When did she avoid the needy?” (ibid., 2:2:7).
“Come, then, and search out your sheep, not through your servants or hired men, but do it yourself. Lift me up bodily and in the flesh, which is fallen in Adam. Lift me up not from Sarah but from Mary, a virgin not only undefiled, but a virgin whom grace had made inviolate, free of every stain of sin” (Commentary on Psalm 118:22–30 [A.D. 387]).
Augustine
“Our Lord . . . was not averse to males, for he took the form of a male, nor to females, for of a female he was born. Besides, there is a great mystery here: that just as death comes to us through a woman, life is born to us through a woman; that the devil, defeated, would be tormented by each nature, feminine and masculine, as he had taken delight in the defection of both” (Christian Combat 22:24 [A.D. 396]).
“That one woman is both mother and virgin, not in spirit only but even in body. In spirit she is mother, not of our head, who is our Savior himself—of whom all, even she herself, are rightly called children of the bridegroom—but plainly she is the mother of us who are his members, because by love she has cooperated so that the faithful, who are the members of that head, might be born in the Church. In body, indeed, she is the Mother of that very head” (Holy Virginity 6:6 [A.D. 401]).
…
“Having excepted the holy Virgin Mary, concerning whom, on account of the honor of the Lord, I wish to have absolutely no question when treating of sins—for how do we know what abundance of grace for the total overcoming of sin was conferred upon her, who merited to conceive and bear him in whom there was no sin?—so, I say, with the exception of the Virgin, if we could have gathered together all those holy men and women, when they were living here, and had asked them whether they were without sin, what do we suppose would have been their answer?” (Nature and Grace 36:42 [A.D. 415]).
Timothy of Jerusalem
“Therefore the Virgin is immortal to this day, seeing that he who had dwelt in her transported her to the regions of her assumption” (Homily on Simeon and Anna [A.D. 400]).
John the Theologian
“[T]he Lord said to his Mother, ‘Let your heart rejoice and be glad, for every favor and every gift has been given to you from my Father in heaven and from me and from the Holy Spirit. Every soul that calls upon your name shall not be ashamed, but shall find mercy and comfort and support and confidence, both in the world that now is and in that which is to come, in the presence of my Father in the heavens’” (The Falling Asleep of Mary [A.D. 400]).
“And from that time forth all knew that the spotless and precious body had been transferred to paradise” (ibid.).
Gregory of Tours
“The course of this life having been completed by blessed Mary, when now she would be called from the world, all the apostles came together from their various regions to her house. And when they had heard that she was about to be taken from the world, they kept watch together with her. And behold, the Lord Jesus came with his angels, and, taking her soul, he gave it over to the angel Michael and withdrew. At daybreak, however, the apostles took up her body on a bier and placed it in a tomb, and they guarded it, expecting the Lord to come. And behold, again the Lord stood by them; the holy body having been received, he commanded that it be taken in a cloud into paradise, where now, rejoined to the soul, [Mary’s body] rejoices with the Lord’s chosen ones and is in the enjoyment of the good of an eternity that will never end” (Eight Books of Miracles 1:4 [A.D. 584]).
“But Mary, the glorious Mother of Christ, who is believed to be a virgin both before and after she bore him, has, as we said above, been translated into paradise, amid the singing of the angelic choirs, whither the Lord preceded her” (ibid., 1:8).
Correct, my friend. Their very identity, indeed the label from Reformational times is Protestant - ones who protest. Protest against what? God and the Church. Are any of these folks any different than, say, Marion, or Nestorius, or even Origen? Well, they're a whole lot less educated, for one thing. Even those of them that profess doctorates in theology - let's compare them with the current Pope, for instance.
The Vatican says that:
From 1946 to 1951 he studied philosophy and theology in the Higher School of Philosophy and Theology of Freising and at the University of Munich. He received his priestly ordination on 29 June 1951. A year later he began teaching at the Higher School of Freising. In 1953 he obtained his doctorate in theology with a thesis entitled "People and House of God in St Augustine’s Doctrine of the Church". Four years later, under the direction of the renowned professor of fundamental theology Gottlieb Söhngen, he qualified for University teaching with a dissertation on: "The Theology of History in St Bonaventure". After lecturing on dogmatic and fundamental theology at the Higher School of Philosophy and Theology in Freising, he went on to teach at Bonn, from 1959 to 1963; at Münster from 1963 to 1966 and at Tübingen from 1966 to 1969. During this last year he held the Chair of dogmatics and history of dogma at the University of Regensburg, where he was also Vice-President of the University.
Doctorate in 1953. Full professorship in 1957. At real universities and not mail order diploma mills. Let us see the educational qualifications of his purported contemporaries on the Protestant side.
Oral Roberts was without education, so he founded his own degree mill, named, humbly, after himself. He awarded doctorates to Creflo Dollar and Kenneth Hagin, for instance. The list of real educational qualifications for televangelists and Protestant preachers is quite thin, once one wades into the swamp.
Regent University, Liberty University, Rochville University, Hamilton University, University of Newcastle, and so on, offer doctorates in theology for a few thousand dollars. Billy Blanks (of Tae Bo fame) has a doctorate in theology from Friendship International Christian University.
Ted Haggard is an Oral Roberts University grad. Jimmy Swaggart, with at most a diploma mill degree himself, founded the World Bible College. John Hagee, on the other hand has bachelor and master degrees in mechanical engineering. Ken Hagin is uneducated, and therefore founded his own college. Ken Copeland is another Oral Roberts alumnus - his qualifications were that he was a recording artist on the Imperial Records label and had a top 40 hit in 1957.
Okay, you see the difference. Friesing, Regensburg, Munich, Bonn, Munster, and Tubingen, versus Oral Roberts and Liberty Universities. The thing is, do any of our separated brethren see it?
You make that statement and then you post this:
“[T]he Lord said to his Mother, ‘Let your heart rejoice and be glad, for every favor and every gift has been given to you from my Father in heaven and from me and from the Holy Spirit. Every soul that calls upon your name shall not be ashamed, but shall find mercy and comfort and support and confidence, both in the world that now is and in that which is to come, in the presence of my Father in the heavens’” (The Falling Asleep of Mary [A.D. 400]).
Is this a serious thread???
Great...An authority...What does the master of time and space mean when it comes to Mary being forever sinless???
No, it wouldn’t. It would cause one to be incredibly humbled and grateful to a gracious God who despite our sin was willing to lovingly take our sin on Himself in spite of our being totally unworthy.
Gee - kinda like those dumb fishermen that Jesus surrounded himself with while eschewing the “learned.” I became a Christian in 1973 at the age of 20, was in the top 1% on the SAT, top 3% on the LSAT and graduated from two of the “best” schools in America. Like Paul, I count it all “dung” for the excellency of knowing Christ. Also, like Paul, I “am glad that I speak in tongues more than you all.” I am surprised that with all of the Catholic doctrine that is out there, almost all Catholics that I run in to are very uninformed when it comes to the elementary teachings concerning Christ as set forth in Hebrews 6:1-2 - namely, repentance from dead works, faith towards God, baptisms, the laying on of hands, resurrection of the dead and eternal judgment. I will gladly tell you my beliefs. I will never obfuscate. My five children have attended some of the best secular universities, evangelical universities and Catholic universities in the country. They can tell you first hand where Christ was being exalted and where he wasn’t. I don’t care how educated someone is, the words of Jesus to the extremely well educated Jewish ruler, Nicodemus, still apply: “Unless a man is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
Even that doesn't really fix it, though; it just shifts the perceived 'problem' back one generation.
It's not a problem for me in the first place, since I reject the concept of original sin. So yeah, both Mary and Jesus were born without sin, but so was I and so were you.
Lets say a humble saved person commits a mortal sin - what then?
If original sin doesn’t exist, then why did Jesus come at all?
I am an atheist...
Is Reginald Firehammer a real person or is he a creation to make anti-Catholics look stupid?
Perhaps "sowing discord" has become an atheist tactic.
To offer an avenue of salvation for people to escape condemnation for the sins they actually commit. See Ezekiel 18 for discussion of actual sin vs. the false idea of ‘inherited’ sin.
No more prone to pride that someone who thinks their own good works that they do themselves are good enough to earn them a place in heaven.
God tells us that our good works are as filthy rags in His sight and yet Catholics by the score depend on them to please God.
That seems like a pretty good bit of pride to think that their own good works are good enough to be exempt from God's judgment on them.
It's no more a matter of being subject to pride than someone who presents others a laundry list of do's and don't's and ceremonies and sacraments which they've performed to show how holy or righteous or devout they are.
And in answer to your question. Possibly, but that would be wrong for them to think that way. However, it does not change what God's Word says about the security of the believer, and someone trusting God to do what He says is not a matter of pride.
No one is exempt from pride. There are many things that can cause people to be proud but that doesn't reflect on the thing itself, but the person involved. Just because some may display pride and arrogance about their security doesn't change the fact of it. It just means they're wrong.
Is that because you are stuck on works based salvation?
>>Lets say a humble saved person commits a mortal sin - what then?<<
Again, works based? You see, when Jesus paid the price it was paid in total. We are not yet in our perfected bodies.
Romans 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. 15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. 16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. 17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. 19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. 20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. 21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. 22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? 25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
What then? We have been forgiven. That is not to say that we do not strive to refrain from sin but we do understand that we are still in our carnal body. Once again, a reason for total humility understanding it is not we who earn our salvation in any way.
Eph 2:8-9 pretty much says it all. We have nothing to boast about because it isn’t of anything we have done, so why would anyone be “smug”?
Eph 2
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.
Well, if Mary’s blood had to be clean and pure so Jesus blood was clean and pure, how did Mary be born of a sinful mother? Would not Mary’s mother’s blood had to have been pure and clean so that Mary’s would have been, and so on back?
Now if God could do that kind of miracle for Mary so that she was born of a sinful mother sinless herself (presuming that to be the case), then why couldn’t God have done the same thing for Jesus that Catholics claim He did for Mary?
Do you understand where the sin nature comes from anyway?
Here is where non Catholics chide Catholics for saying “all” doesn’t mean “all”. Well, either the statements from Romans you posted are indeed a form if hyperbole, or else you and all the others who simply (seemingly) LOVE to go to those verses are claiming not only do people who are severely mentally retarded commit sin, but Jesus Christ Himself was a sinner.
Is the Bible the word of God???
1Pe 2:22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:
Of course Jesus did not sin...But the scriptures say that ALL (others) have sinned...The fact that your religion says otherwise is meaningless to me and those who believe God...
The “mortal sin” that the “saved person” commits was “already” paid for by the Alpha and Omega.
And he will be forgiven it if he repents.
Can you please show us from Scripture the distinction between mortal and venial sin?
My understanding of the Catholic faith is that the bible is the word of God only as interpreted through the Priesthood/RCC.
LeGrande is still with us......
I’m sure your point is that all sin is abhorrent to God, and excludes the sinner from His eternal presence,
correct?
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