Posted on 04/14/2011 9:21:51 AM PDT by marshmallow
Oddly enough, that sums up most Reformation beliefs as well.
Obviously I disagree with your opinion. I know well the scriptures so it is not necessary to attend, visiting the Vatican Sites was plenty enough to educate one on their beliefs and practices. No thank you, I have no desire to attend what so ever. There’s enough videos to view to make a deduction that what the Vatican proclaims is pretty much what they practice.
My friend, you are battling against the very identity of those who oppose the Church. The Church Fathers are objects of ridicule to them, except when an out of context snippet may be used offhandedly to support some crazy belief that they are trying to put over on Christians as Gospel belief. Paul spent a lot of time warning about those who oppose and use the Church for their own ends.
2 Thessalonians 2: 1 1 We ask you, brothers, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our assembling with him, 2 not to be shaken out of your minds suddenly, or to be alarmed either by a "spirit," 2 or by an oral statement, or by a letter allegedly from us to the effect that the day of the Lord is at hand. 3 Let no one deceive you in any way. For unless the apostasy comes first and the lawless one is revealed, 3 the one doomed to perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god and object of worship, so as to seat himself in the temple of God, 4 claiming that he is a god-- 5 do you not recall that while I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And now you know what is restraining, 5 that he may be revealed in his time.
We see the heralds of the evil one. They are everywhere, and like to cluster on the end times discussions, as if they have Gnostic knowledge of when the Lord will come again. Paul warns us of their deceit.
How do you know? What makes you an expert? What are your sources for this prattling? Let's see what Scripture actually says.
Matthew 27: 50 30 But Jesus cried out again in a loud voice, and gave up his spirit. 51 And behold, the veil of the sanctuary was torn in two from top to bottom. 31 The earth quaked, rocks were split, 52 tombs were opened, and the bodies of many saints who had fallen asleep were raised. 53 And coming forth from their tombs after his resurrection, they entered the holy city and appeared to many. 54 32 The centurion and the men with him who were keeping watch over Jesus feared greatly when they saw the earthquake and all that was happening, and they said, "Truly, this was the Son of God!" 55 There were many women there, looking on from a distance, 33 who had followed Jesus from Galilee, ministering to him. 56 Among them were Mary Magdalene and Mary the mother of James and Joseph, and the mother of the sons of Zebedee.
Nothing about Jesus being unrecognizable here. Let's move on.
Mark 15: 33 At noon darkness came over the whole land until three in the afternoon. 34 And at three o'clock Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eloi, Eloi, lema sabachthani?" 14 which is translated, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" 35 15 Some of the bystanders who heard it said, "Look, he is calling Elijah." 36 One of them ran, soaked a sponge with wine, put it on a reed, and gave it to him to drink, saying, "Wait, let us see if Elijah comes to take him down." 37 Jesus gave a loud cry and breathed his last. 38 16 The veil of the sanctuary was torn in two from top to bottom. 39 17 When the centurion who stood facing him saw how he breathed his last he said, "Truly this man was the Son of God!" 40 18 There were also women looking on from a distance. Among them were Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of the younger James and of Joses, and Salome. 41 These women had followed him when he was in Galilee and ministered to him. There were also many other women who had come up with him to Jerusalem.
These don't say unrecognizable. Let us move on.
Luke 23: 38 Above him there was an inscription that read, "This is the King of the Jews." 39 6 Now one of the criminals hanging there reviled Jesus, saying, "Are you not the Messiah? Save yourself and us." 40 The other, however, rebuking him, said in reply, "Have you no fear of God, for you are subject to the same condemnation? 41 And indeed, we have been condemned justly, for the sentence we received corresponds to our crimes, but this man has done nothing criminal." 42 Then he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom." 43 He replied to him, "Amen, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise." 44 7 It was now about noon and darkness came over the whole land until three in the afternoon 45 because of an eclipse of the sun. Then the veil of the temple was torn down the middle. 46 Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Father, into your hands I commend my spirit"; and when he had said this he breathed his last. 47 The centurion who witnessed what had happened glorified God and said, "This man was innocent 8 beyond doubt." 48 When all the people who had gathered for this spectacle saw what had happened, they returned home beating their breasts; 49 but all his acquaintances stood at a distance, including the women who had followed him from Galilee and saw these events.
Even the criminals recognized Jesus.
John 19: 25 10 Standing by the cross of Jesus were his mother and his mother's sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary of Magdala. 26 When Jesus saw his mother 11 and the disciple there whom he loved, he said to his mother, "Woman, behold, your son." 27 Then he said to the disciple, "Behold, your mother." And from that hour the disciple took her into his home. 28 After this, aware that everything was now finished, in order that the scripture might be fulfilled, 12 Jesus said, "I thirst." 29 There was a vessel filled with common wine. 13 So they put a sponge soaked in wine on a sprig of hyssop and put it up to his mouth. 30 14 When Jesus had taken the wine, he said, "It is finished." And bowing his head, he handed over the spirit. 31 Now since it was preparation day, in order that the bodies might not remain on the cross on the sabbath, for the sabbath day of that week was a solemn one, the Jews asked Pilate that their legs be broken and they be taken down. 32 So the soldiers came and broke the legs of the first and then of the other one who was crucified with Jesus. 33 But when they came to Jesus and saw that he was already dead, they did not break his legs, 34 15 but one soldier thrust his lance into his side, and immediately blood and water flowed out. 35 An eyewitness has testified, and his testimony is true; he knows 16 that he is speaking the truth, so that you also may (come to) believe. 36 For this happened so that the scripture passage might be fulfilled: "Not a bone of it will be broken." 37 And again another passage says: "They will look upon him whom they have pierced."
Nobody had any problem recognizing Jesus.
But some are determined to put man's spin on the supernatural because of pride - in spite of being told to not lean unto our own understanding - they do it anyhow. They don't take God and His Word serious. Along with when Jesus said...just believe. His Words of .."Depart from Me, I never knew you" don't see to jar some out of their stupor - since we know Him through His Word - the Word that they don't take serious and as the Final Authority.
Yup, and I think that I have quite adequately shown from Scripture just who is spinning and whose pride prevents them from understanding Scripture and leads them to make asinine statements which are not found in Scripture, but reside only in their own hearts.
Well spoken Mark. The problem is that for these folks, their entire identity is based on negativity. They are not Christian, that is how they identify themselves -- note that they will not tell you their beliefs, they will obfuscate.
A question like "Do you believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, only Son of God, begotten not made" gets no answer
These people have no beliefs of their own, only negatives -- they will only deride Christianity while at the same time not revealing their non-Christian beliefs
Very good. We know from Matthew 16 and 28 who Jesus gave His stewardship of His Church to. We also know:
James 2: 19 You believe that God is one. You do well. Even the demons believe that and tremble.
We also know:
2 Peter 2: 14 Therefore, beloved, since you await these things, be eager to be found without spot or blemish before him, at peace. 15 And consider the patience of our Lord as salvation, as our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, also wrote to you, 16 speaking of these things 12 as he does in all his letters. In them there are some things hard to understand that the ignorant and unstable distort to their own destruction, just as they do the other scriptures. 17 Therefore, beloved, since you are forewarned, be on your guard not to be led into the error of the unprincipled and to fall from your own stability.
How many manglings of Paul do we see daily here? And not merely do those who reject the Church fall, they have in their pride rejected even the parachute of Scripture, preferring the distortion of their own man made hubris.
Does your group believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.
You won't get a response from the standard detractors as they do not even know what they believe in, only that they hate Christians.
Mark Since I find that most anti Catholics are often wrong or misleading in their Scriptural understanding, let us look at actual Scripture.
Acts 10: 34 12 Then Peter proceeded to speak and said, 13 "In truth, I see that God shows no partiality. 35 Rather, in every nation whoever fears him and acts uprightly is acceptable to him.
It says here that God find ALL of those nations who fear Him and act uprightly are acceptable to Him - He does not pick and choose among them. This is intended to be a teaching on those whom God finds acceptable - not a teaching on individuals. Next.
Well put, Mark.
Very much so. That's why I oppose those of your posts that preach heresy.
Matthew 7: 15 9 "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but underneath are ravenous wolves. 16 By their fruits you will know them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 Just so, every good tree bears good fruit, and a rotten tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a rotten tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 So by their fruits you will know them. 21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, 10 but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name? Did we not drive out demons in your name? Did we not do mighty deeds in your name?' 23 Then I will declare to them solemnly, 'I never knew you. 11 Depart from me, you evildoers.'
All those who preach heresy against the Church may depart to their thistles and to their thornbushes. Christ will provide the spiritual medicine should you wish to come out.
When an articles lists only quotes from the Fathers to try to prove a doctrine and does not list corresponding Scripture to prove that same doctrine I would say the words of men are not only believed equal, they are believed superior to Scripture. In fact, some of the quotes here attribute words to Christ which are not found in the Scripture at all.
Please can you point out any place in this article that in any way says that they are equal?
Also, wu, nowhere does the article attribute words that are not found in S.
And by the same RC logic those thru whom the pure Scriptures came forth must also have been sinless, not just holy. (2Pt. 1:21).
No time to compile now, but useful links: http://www.truefreethinker.com/articles/roman-catholic-maryology-mary-roman-catholicism-part-8-immaculately-conceived
http://www.aomin.org/aoblog/index.php?itemid=4165
http://www.bible.ca/cr-Orthodox.htm
Discuss the issues all you want, but do not make it personal.
You said "what attack?" Now, I would assume it would be obvious to anyone that, considering your beliefs that Catholicism = liberalism = socialism etc, the target you are attacking is the Catholic Church.
Nowhere did I say you are dumb. I said that we, if you read my post again you'll see I said "us," shouldn't play dumb.
One more point I would like to cover. Your posts contain many insinuations that Catholic posters are liberals. You referred to a post I made (a post, I might add, that I copied from you and inserted 'protestanism instead of 'Catholicism'), as "Propaganda from the left." There are many other examples of that opinion in your posts.
Sufficient to say, I'd hazard a guess that there are very, very, very few liberals currently surviving and trolling successfully on FR. While we may disagree about doctine, Bible, and a host of other religious topics, there is no need to apply the label of 'liberal' to those you disagree with.
Good morning, by the way.
For quite a while, I used to go to a daily Mass and the Magnificat was sung.
That phrase “I rejoice in God my Savior” was therefore buried deep in my memory.
For years, I could not even recognize it’s implications.
Only when I got saved by the Savior (by grace through faith), did the Holy Spirit reveal to me what that verse meant in regard to the person who spoke it.
All humans, even Mary, need a Savior.
All humans, especially me, need a Savior.
My current location is hidden with God in Christ. I stand before God, clothed in Christ’s righteousness. My salvation before Him is secure, guaranteed by the promises of Jesus Himself.
“Check out the Church Fathers.”
I did that for years.
and years.
and years.
I checked out the original writings of St. Peter and of the Lord Jesus Himself.
They differ with the ECFs, by the way.
I believe early theologians struggled with Jesus' humanity. The blood sacrifice by Jesus had to be pure, unblemished, spotless, sinless - you name it. How could this be, when, he was born of a woman?
The solution was to make the woman extra-special. Her blood had to be as clean as his needed to be. Thru theology, they solved the problem of the perfect sacrifice. They didn't understand the science involved - mom's blood is not given to the baby. My understanding about blood types and such is that their blood could actually be deadly to one another.
An incredible solution to an incredible theological problem, but then, several hundreds of years later, we find out the science of blood and the incredible miracle of conception. Amazing. Yet God knew all along. Jesus could be born of a woman with sin, yet not have that stain.
We all struggle with things we don't completely understand. We use theology to explain the mysteries of God, trying to understand him the best we can. We serve a great and mighty God, and I know I don't understand all his ways. But I am learning to trust him, for there is none other that is 'good'.
But doesn't it seem that someone who believes "I'm saved. My spot in heaven is reserved and guaranteed. I'm filled with Grace and I'm completely saved." would be very prone to pride? And smugness? And I'm-better-than-all-them-unsaved-folks-ness?
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