FOTFLOL!!!!!!
Posted on 03/19/2011 10:57:34 PM PDT by dangus
"My soul magnifies the Lord, and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior." -- Luke 1:47
It is undeniable, that "Savior" in this sense alludes to being saved from sin. So the question is: If Mary had never sinned, or was never guilty of original sin, as the Catholic Church states, why would she need a Savior?
As in English, in Greek word for "Savior" ("soter") comes from the word for "safe" ("sozo"). In modern English, the connection between "safe" and "heal" is largely lost, but "salvation" retains the root, "salv," from "salve," meaning "heal" or "a healing ointment." Thus, the notion of a "savior" being one who restores health, or undoes harm is not a completely incorrect notion. But neither should it overshadow the fundamental meaning that a "savior" is one who prevents harm, as much as one who restores one from harm.
Therefore, it should hardly be surprising that one who has been prevented from original sin should rejoice in her "savior" from original sin.
In fact, the term "savior" in Greek has a connotation of a god who preserves his people. As explained in the Protestant lexicon, Strong's Concordance,:
The name was given by the ancients to deities, esp. tutelary deities, to princes, kings, and in general to men who had conferred signal benefits upon their country, and in more degenerate days by the way of flattery to personages of influence.(Wigram) The word soter was a common Greek epithet for the gods (e.g., Zeus, Apollo, and Hermes), active personalities in world affairs (e.g., Epicurus) and rulers (e.g., Ptolemy Philopator, and later Roman Emporers). (cf. LSJ and BDAG)God certainly was Mary's Lord and Protector, who kept her safe from sin. That does not mean she sinned.
But doesn't Paul state that "all have sinned?" Is Paul wrong?
Not in the least. As Protestant theologian Charles Spurgeon explains (in an alternate context) the meaning of "all," (in Greek, "pas"):
"... 'The whole world is gone after him.' Did all the world go after Christ? 'Then went all Judea, and were baptized of him in Jordan.' Was all Judea, or all Jerusalem baptized in Jordan? 'Ye are of God, little children', and 'the whole world lieth in the wicked one.' Does 'the whole world' there mean everybody? If so, how was it, then, that there were some who were 'of God?' The words 'world' and 'all' are used in some seven or eight senses in Scripture; and it is very rarely that 'all' means all persons, taken individually. The words are generally used to signify that Christ has redeemed some of all sorts—some Jews, some Gentiles, some rich, some poor, and has not restricted his redemption to either Jew or Gentile." (Charles H. Spurgeon, Particular Redemption, A Sermon, 28 Feb 1858).In context, what Paul is saying is that Jews (in general) and Greeks (in general), and every other people (in general) have sinned. To establish that Jews are no better than any other people, he quotes the prophet Isaiah,
What shall we conclude then? Are we any better? Not at all! We have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin.In this passage, the prophet is describing the Jews around him, and uses the phrase, "There is no-one righteous, not one." It's been argued that the prophet is describing in a prophetic sense not just the Jews around him, but the universal condition of man, as a result of original sin. It might make sense to say that all we who have committed original sin are not righteous in a sense, since our righteousness is imputed righteousness, earned not by our own effort, but by Christ's sacrifice on our behalf.
As it is written: "There is no one righteous, not even one; there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God.
All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one."
"Their throats are open graves; their tongues practice deceit." "The poison of vipers is on their lips."
"Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness."
"Their feet are swift to shed blood; ruin and misery mark their ways and the way of peace they do not know.
" "There is no fear of God before their eyes."
But that same passage asserts that not one has done anything good at all, that they know not the way of peace, and there is no fear of God among anyone. Even if our righteousness is merely imputed, and our ability to do good relies entirely on Christ acting through us, regenerated Christians do good, know the way of peace and fear God. As such, we know that Paul is using that passage only to establish that Jews need Christ as much as Gentiles, for they have been as wicked as Gentiles, he is not using that passage to describe saved Christians.
But the Blessed Virgin Mary lived (in part) before the Holy Sacrifice, the Resurrection and the Descent of the Holy Spirit? How can she have been saved from sin?
The bible explicitly states that salvation occurred anticipating these events. For the prophet Simeon stated upon seeing the infant Jesus, "Mine eyes have seen thy salvation." How could this be? Whose salvation has he witnessed?
Mary's.
Who said all times are 'Now' to God...Did he create the world today??? Was the crucifixion today??? How about the resurrection??? Today???
Deu 2:10 The Emims dwelt therein in times past, a people great, and many, and tall, as the Anakims;
Deu 2:11 Which also were accounted giants, as the Anakims; but the Moabites call them Emims.
Do we still have giants today???
How many times has God said thou shalt (future) or thous hast (past)???
Certainly Eternity is timeless but there is no indication that God does not do things in 'time'...I'm sure 'before' means to God the same as it means to us...
And, if the Wedding that makes the church the Bride had taken place in the past (which it hasn't, it's future), there's no place for future so called Christians to be in the Wedding...No current Bride of Christ...
There was no 'ripple' effect for those in prison (Abraham's Bosom)...Jesus had to go there and witness to those folks personally...
Not all those in heaven will be the Bride of Christ...The parables show us that there will be friends and guests at the Wedding as well as the Bride and Groom...
What happened before the Cross is not the same that happens after the Cross...
http://www.jesus-passion.com/TrueDevotion.htm#TREATISE%20ON%20TRUE%20DEVOTION
Lets see where was I?
8. Every day, from one end of the earth to the other, in the highest heaven and in the lowest abyss, all things preach, all things proclaim the wondrous Virgin Mary. The nine choirs of angels, men and women of every age, rank and religion, both good and evil, even the very devils themselves are compelled by the force of truth, willingly or unwillingly, to call her blessed. According to St. Bonaventure, all the angels in heaven unceasingly call out to her: "Holy, holy, holy Mary, Virgin Mother of God." They greet her countless times each day with the angelic greeting, "Hail, Mary", while prostrating themselves before her, begging her as a favour to honour them with one of her requests. According to St. Augustine, even St. Michael, though prince of all the heavenly court, is the most eager of all the angels to honour her and lead others to honour her. At all times he awaits the privilege of going at her word to the aid of one of her servants.
9. The whole world is filled with her glory, and this is especially true of Christian peoples, who have chosen her as guardian and protectress of kingdoms, provinces, dioceses, and towns. Many cathedrals are consecrated to God in her name. There is no church without an altar dedicated to her, no country or region without at least one of her miraculous images where all kinds of afflictions are cured and all sorts of benefits received. Many are the confraternities and associations honouring her as patron; many are the orders under her name and protection; many are the members of sodalities and religious of all congregations who voice her praises and make known her compassion. There is not a child who does not praise her by lisping a Hail Mary. There is scarcely a sinner, however hardened, who does not possess some spark of confidence in her. The very devils in hell, while fearing her, show her respect.
10. And yet in truth we must still say with the saints: De Maria numquam satis : We have still not praised, exalted, honoured, loved and served Mary adequately. She is worthy of even more praise, respect, love and service.
The argument that Immaculate Conception was necessary for Christ to have been sinless is not Scriptural. God is not bound by man’s infirmity, and the assuredly Divine, God-breathed scriptures came thru holy but imperfect souls who were sinners. As for Tradition, most Orthodox, based on Tradition, reject the dogma of the Immaculate Conception (IM) as unnecessary.
Mary was holy and was graced, the latter as are those who are “accepted (same word rendered “full of grace” by Rome) in the Beloved.” (Eph. 1:6)
The doctrine of the IM is part of the unScriptural exaltation of Mary, thinking of humans above which is written (1Cor. 4:6) in which she is made an heavenly object of prayer, and dispense of all grace. Etc.
Idolatry, plain and simple.
All that time and effort wasted on someone besides God.
Angels falling down prostrate before Mary saying, "Holy, Holy, Holy"? And that's not worship??? They haven't made Mary into a goddess, its just devotion? Yeah sure, riiiight.
Our Lady of Perpetual Hallucinations.
"Take heed to yourselves, and to the whole flock, wherein the Holy Ghost hath placed you bishops, to rule the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood." - Act 20:28 (Douay-Rheims)
Christ's blood was God's blood.
>> Then, how was the curse of Adam circumvented in Mary’s lineage?<<<
God said so?
Show me where God said so.
Mary's."
~~~
Luke 2:29-32 "Lord, now lettest thou thy servant depart in peace, according to thy word: For mine eyes have seen thy salvation, Which thou hast prepared before the face of all people; A light to lighten the Gentiles, and the glory of thy people Israel."
"Lord," - Simeon is talking to God the Father.
"...now lettest thou thy servant depart in peace, according to thy word:" - (see Luke 2:25-26)
"For mine eyes have seen thy salvation," - God sent His Son to die for the sins of the whole world..
"Which thou hast prepared before the face of all people;" - God the Father
"A light to lighten the Gentiles, and the glory of thy people Israel." - God the Son.
Yes, “thy salvation” refers to the salvation done by the father. But who has been saved by the father? He’s looking forward to the salvation of Israel, but in whom has he seen this salvation made manifest?
>> Christ’s blood was God’s blood. <<
Christ’s blood was His own, and he was God. But Christ was fully human, as well as fully divine. See, this is the very trap that the Church Fathers sought to combat by declaring Mary, “Theotokos” (Mother of God): Christ was fully human. His blood was human blood.
And this, then, the “fascination” of Catholics with Mary: Once we have been regenerated by Baptism, so we are no longer under the stain of original sin, we can be pure. We need not be divine to be pure, so we who are regenerated have no excuse when we sin.
In turn, this is why Protestantism persistently rejects such a notion: without recourse to the blessings of purgatory, there is no hope of purification for those who die sinful. And so Protestantism sees sanctification as merely a means of imputation of righteousness for all sins, past present and future. Although Catholicism rejected Sola Fidelis on the grounds that it leads to the sin of presumption and the heresy of antinomianism, Catholicism does accept Sola Gratis. But it also holds that in addition to the imputation of righteousness for all past sins, sanctification is also a process of removing concupiscence, the irresistible tendency to commit new sin.
The soul which has had concupiscence completely removed in this life is rare, hence the celebration of Saints, in addition to mere saints. Since antiquity, Few popes have been Saints; several have been wicked. The warriors of Catholicism, like Jan Sobiesky and Juan of Austria (each of whom saved Western Civilization), are largely unknown to the average Catholic. Far better known are the Saints, like Francis of Assissi, Benedict of Nursia, Ignatius of Loyola, Therese of Lisieux, Catherine of Siena. The names like Constantine aren’t celebrated in mass, even though everyone knows of him... but rather Agatha and Perpetua, Linus and Sixtus. And the first such Saint, who was pure from the start, was Jesus’ Mom.
“What would Jesus Do?” Honor his mother and father. And so we honor our own mother and father, but we also honor Mary and Joseph. And we give special honor to Mary, who was preserved from all sin.
Mary is the mother of Jesus.
Jesus is God.
Mary is the mother of God.
God is not offended by man.
Philippians 2:5-10 5 Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, 6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7but made himself nothing, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. 8And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. 9 Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, 10so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Butter is yellow
The Sun is yellow
The Sun is made of butter.
Try again.
Hoss
It is clear from a basic reading of the sentence, following normal rules of grammar, that Simeon is referring to Jesus when he says that his eyes have seen God's salvation. The sentence is bout Jesus, not Mary.
JESUS is the light of the world, not Mary.
Matthew 4:12-16 12Now when he heard that John had been arrested, he withdrew into Galilee. 13And leaving Nazareth he went and lived in Capernaum by the sea, in the territory of Zebulun and Naphtali, 14 so that what was spoken by the prophet Isaiah might be fulfilled: 15 "The land of Zebulun and the land of Naphtali, the way of the sea, beyond the Jordan, Galilee of the Gentiles— 16 the people dwelling in darkness have seen a great light, and for those dwelling in the region and shadow of death, on them a light has dawned."
Catholics really need to learn to fit doctrine to Scripture, not to twist Scripture to fit doctrine.
But don't let facts get in the way of misinterpreting Scripture to support a pet doctrine.
>> God is not offended by man. <<
God is very highly offended by man. Out of compassion, he condescended and forgave.
>> Luke 2:29-32 “Lord, now lettest thou thy servant depart in peace, according to thy word: For mine eyes have seen thy salvation, <<
As I already addressed, “thy salvation” certainly does refer to the salvation performed by Christ. But who has been saved? Jesus? He required no salvation. Israel? Israel was not yet saved. Mary, the woman upon Simeon was looking when he said, “mine eyes have seen thy salvation.”
>> Catholics really need to learn to fit doctrine to Scripture, not to twist Scripture to fit doctrine. But don’t let facts get in the way of misinterpreting Scripture to support a pet doctrine. <<
That’s uproarious, seeing how Catholics are the ones who’ve been consistent in their doctrines since the Catholic church was founded by Christ, 2000 years ago, as opposed to the novel interpretations never before uttered until Zwingli, Calvin and Luther. Try looking at the statements of the Church Fathers, 1900 years ago, regarding the sinlessness of Mary. For that matter, try reading even Martin Luther!
Yes I realize this is the RCC position that arose in the defense of Nestorian heresy, i.e., that Jesus was 2 separate individuals (human and divine) rather than the unique only begotten God-man both human + Divine. So the attempt was to call Mary the 'Mother' of God so as not to separate the divinity from the humanity of Christ which was felt could lead to further heresy.
But how the RCC has gone into the other ditch and has devolved itself into Marian heresies. By calling Mary the "Mother of God" she (Mary) has now been raised into divinity status herself, without sin, now she is prayed to, bowed to, exalted, and made a co-redemptrix equal with Christ or even greater in some cases. All blasphemous heresies.
Mary is the Mother of the humanity of Christ. She is not and never has been the source of His divinity. Nor was she ever conceived without sin. This can be seen from her statements in Luke 1:47-48...God my Savior in v. 47 and humble estate in v. 48. (KJV uses the translation low estate). The Greek text is ταπείνωσις (tapeinōsis) which means:
"ταπείνωσις (tapeinōsis, 5014), -εως, ἡ, (ταπεινόω), lowness, low estate, [humiliation]: Lk. i. 48; Acts viii. 33 (fr. Is. liii. 8); Phil. iii. 21 (on which see σῶμα, 1 b.); metaph. spiritual abasement, leading one to perceive and lament his (moral) littleness and guilt,"
A humble sinner isn't going to be the source or 'Mother' of God. God has existed from all eternity, Christ is the one who in His pre-incarnate state is the Creator, the Creator (Christ) created Mary, as the Creator God He has no need of a 'divine' Mother. But to be the Redeemer of man He needed to become human to take the sins of man upon Himself and provide for our salvation. It is his humanity that Mary is the Mother of - not the divine.
Here's what Christ actually said about it: "For whoever does the will of My Father who is in heaven, he is My brother and sister and mother." Matthew 12:50. (Cf. John 19:26-27). Christ took the focus OFF Mary and so should we. I'm willing to bet that Christ knew a future time would come when Mary would be exalted and He headed those heresies off at the pass with these veres.
"At that time, therefore, when about to engage in divine acts, He repelled, as one unknown, her who was the mother, not of His divinity, but of His [human] infirmity." (St. Augustine: NPNF1: Vol. VII, Tractates on John, Tractate CXIX, §1, John 19:24-30)
hehehe..
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