So,..we've been speeding on a remote road again, have we,..Mr RobRoy?
Posted on 03/05/2011 11:00:45 PM PST by OrthodoxKirkPresbyterian
A new book by one of the country’s most influential evangelical pastors, challenging traditional Christian views of heaven, hell and eternal damnation, has created an uproar among evangelical leaders
In a book to be published this month, the pastor, Rob Bell, known for his provocative views and appeal among the young, describes as “misguided and toxic” the dogma that “a select few Christians will spend forever in a peaceful, joyous place called heaven, while the rest of humanity spends forever in torment and punishment in hell with no chance for anything better.”
(Excerpt) Read more at nytimes.com ...
‘when we sin, we re-enter into that fellowship by turning back to Him, confessing our sin to Him’
Although I really like the analogy, I can’t take credit for it. Also, how would you like to get a speeding ticket for speeding on a road where no signs were posted, and you find out the fine is having your eyes gouged out, your tongue splayed and raw torture for trillions upon trillions of years. Somehow that just seems a bit extreme.
‘Calvin’s notion that all those who aren’t saved are totally depraved, and utterly incapable of any virtue.’, that is not Calvin’s notion but what God teaches us, that is Christian belief. Calvinism teaches pure unadulterated Christianity.
If you cannot accept Calvinism, attacking Calvin seems to be the easiest to do. Why not focus on TULIP and see that this is the only biblically sound doctrine? Rejecting any one point is rejecting the completeness of scripture.
This is an abomination. Frankly, I think people are crazy to let anyone other than themselves teach their children anything unless they’ve been strictly vetted. I home schooled my children and I save myself a lot of grief. This is the worst thing I’ve ever seen on the internet.
Hell is clearly taught in the scripture. But after seeing that last video clip I can understand why hell exists. It’s there to put people like that teacher so they won’t be able to infect any more people.
You can read a more detailed description of hell in the Apocolypse of Peter. Go the the link below and go to the reference section. If there was a one and a trillion chance of me going to place like that..I’ll pass. BTW, it was removed by the early church.
The way I understand it is that a man is expected to fear God keep His commandments. That is the only duty of man and the commandments are no hard to keep.
Re: the other sheep in his fold, specifically those of John 10:15-16
Joh 10:11-16
(11) I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.
(12) But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep.
(13) The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep.
(14) I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.
(15) As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.
(16) And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
Re: salvation, it is true the elect are predestined for salvation before time, but they/we are still condemned without salvation before we are saved. If for no other reason consider the believers who were in Abraham’s Bosom prior to the Cross. They were not saved, until the Perfect Sacrifice had been given, but they still had provision and were predestined for salvation.
God is always faithful in His provision, but man might not be faithful. In His magnificent Plan, we were brilliantly condemned prior to salvation. Christ was Judged for all personal sins on the Cross, but they were not forgiven until we exercised faith in Him. Likewise for unbelievers, their personal sins also were redeemed on the Cross, but they remain condemned until they are forgiven. That forgiveness requires the person to face God and to confess sin to Him. In the case of initial salvation, the believer faces God and confesses his sin and that faith is efficacious for salvation, thereby God immediately forgives all the believer’s past sins, which also had already been redeemed at the Cross.
This is why forgiveness can occur on a moment’s notice, but sanctification is a continuing process. Christ redeemed our sin, and paid the price for sin, at the Cross, once and forever for all personal sins. The issue of sin has been settled once and for all, but not the issue of good and evil. Good and evil is resolved over time.
I am closer to a 4 pt Calvinist, believing in unlimited atonement.
So,..we've been speeding on a remote road again, have we,..Mr RobRoy?
No person is ever condemned to hell for their personal sins.
They are in a state of condemnation from birth as a result of Adam’s sin in the Garden. Salvation means being saved from condemnation.
All sin has been bought and paid for by Christ on the Cross. He was judged for all sin. Sin is no longer the issue. Good and evil are the issue.
We still have an old sin nature after salvation, so we are tempted and we do sin, and when we sin we fall out of fellowship with Him, but He still indwells us by His Volition.
Look at Rev 20:12,13. They are not sent to hell after looking at sin, they are sent after a review of works. We are still saved by faith alone, and not by works lest any man should boast, but those sent to hell are not sent due to personal sin (except perhaps for the sin of rejecting salvation provided by Christ, if one wants to interpret the words in that fashion).
By persevering, we await the bema seat of Christ.
When we fall out of fellowship, we risk the judgment, but our names have not been blotted out of the Book of Life.
Jesus' sacrifice was only for His sheep, not for the others.
If you say He came for all then that means some resist Him, denying Uncondintional Election and also denying Irresistable Grace. You cannot deny one of the 5 points. It is all or nothing. If you reject these 5 points of Calvinism, you are rejecting the cornerstone of Christianity. There is no such thing as a 4 point Calvinist, there is only one who accepts all five or who rejects them all.
Nobody is claiming everybody is called by the Father, nor that everybody is elected, but He has paid the price for all. He is faithful, though fallen man may not be. It’s really a moot point if one simply places faith in Christ and let God handle the fight.
Sinning is an act, not a state of being.
See, the problem is that you buy into the falsehood that is know as the ‘original sin’.
While that was the first sin, it didn’t condemn anyone other than Adam and Eve. And even they had a chance to be welcomed into the world thereafter.
Unfortunately, too many believe that the word of Paul (and Augustine) supersedes the word of G-d.
Jesus was quite clear that the evaluation of prophets should be based on the fruit of their life. Calvin’s feelings about killing heretics and people who disagree with him about killing heretics is a direct reflection on his theology.
The TULIP is a very tightly consistent theology with itself, but is inconsistent with much of scripture. I’m sure you’ve seen the passages, but you simply choose to explain them differently. It is the seeming inconsistencies of scripture that I appreciate and I simply wait in faith until I see face to face.
It seems the place to begin with TULIP is whether God offers his atonement to everyone or to a limited elect only. Unless it’s bent and twisted, there is much scripture clearly states that God’s desire is that all would be saved and that his salvation is offered to to all. There are hints of truth that are in each part of the TULIP but only when they are held in tension with the other parts of scripture.
Total depravity - yet created good
Unconditional election - yet called to choose
Limited atonement in the end - yet all are given the opportunity to choose Christ
Irresistible grace - which hints toward a hope that all will eventually be redeemed.
Perseverance of the saints - no, we can fall away. It takes some real twisting of some scripture to say we can’t.
Tight consistency in theology is not inherent to Christianity or Judaism, it is an impulse borrowed from the Greeks and Islam. My experience has been that the preachers that have all the details of their theology worked out tend to be the least charitable toward others, not matter what religion they claim to follow.
It does say hell is place where the fire is NEVER quenched and the worm NEVER dies. "NEVER" sure sounds like time unending to me.
I repeat, there is no such thing as a 4 point Calvinist, there is only a person who accepts all five or who rejects them all.
What exactly is Hell? What does the Bible say about it?
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