The Pandemic of End-Times Dysfunction (E.D.)

The Gary DeMar Show ^ | Nov 12, 2009 | Joel McDurmon

[topcat54]

Joel McDurmon, hosting today's show for Gary DeMar, exposes End-times Dysfunction (E.D.) for what it is. Joel shares with doomsdayers how they can get relief from their paranoia and troubled souls.

[conservativegramma]

Interesting that folks are still claiming Darby, etc. etc. Why I have no idea, the notion there was no rapture teaching pre-1830 has been thoroughly debunked.

A few examples of early statements:

1. "Why therefore do we not reject every care of earthly actions and prepare ourselves for the meeting of the Lord Christ, so that he may draw us from the confusion, which overwhelms all the world? . . . For all the saints and elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins." Source: Pseudo-Ephraem, On the Last Times, the Antichrist, and the End of the World, section 2, translated by Cameron Rhoades, produced by The Pre-Trib Research Center. See Timothy J. Demy and Thomas D. Ice, "The Rapture and an Early Medieval Citation, Bibliotheca Sacra, (Vol. 152, No. 607; July-September 1995), pp. 306-17. Reprinted in Thomas Ice and Timothy J. Demy, The Return: Understanding Christ's Second Coming and the End Times (Grand Rapids: Kregel, 1999), pp. 55-66.

More here on this text

This text has of course been 'critiqued' by Dr. Robert Gundry of Westmont College, a leading posttribulationist, but Ice and Demy, in their book The Return, pp. 67-73 thoroughly discredited Gundry so the text stands.

2. Morgan Edwards - wrote about his pretrib beliefs in 1744 and later published them in 1788. Source: Morgan Edwards, Two Academical Exercised on Subjects Bearing the following Titles; Millennium, Last-Novelties (Philadelphia: self-published, 1788). See Thomas Ice, "Morgan Edwards: Another Pre-Darby Rapturist," Pre-Trib Perspectives (Vol. II, No. 4; Sept/Oct 1995), pp. 1-3.

Morgan stated:

II. The distance between the first and second resurrection will be somewhat more than a thousand years.

I say, somewhat more-, because the dead saints will be raised, and the living changed at Christ's "appearing in the air" (I Thes. iv. 17); and this will be about three years and a half before the millennium, as we shall see hereafter: but will he and they abide in the air all that time? No: they will ascend to paradise, or to some one of those many "mansions in the father's house" (John xiv. 2), and disappear during the foresaid period of time. The design of this retreat and disappearing will be to judge the risen and changed saints; for "now the time is come that judgment must begin," and that will be "at the house of God" (I Pet. iv. 17) . . . (p. 7; The spelling of all Edwards quotes have been modernized.)

Those are just 2 sources that seriously pre-date 1830. To continue to promote that it wasn't taught prior to the 19th century is disingenuous at best.

I mean those who reject the rapture are still not going to believe in it necessarily on the basis of these texts, but anyone who is honest in their research will have to revise their statements by at least a 1,000 years.

To not do so and continue to propagate a lie that has been disproven speaks volumes about their true spiritual state. JMO.

[Quix]

!YEAH!
GREAT ILLUSTRATION:

SHOWING THAT
ABOUT ALL WE CAN EXPECT
FROM REPLACEMENTARIANS, PRETERISTS ET AL
IS

!GIGO!

GARBAGE-IN-GARBAGE-OUT!

May God have mercy on such willful blindness and Biblical ignorance.

[Quix]

ABSOLUTELY INDEED.

[Quix]

WELL PUT.

[The Theophilus]

Thanks for the reminder Quix, though I would rather get my facts through research and scholarship rather than technicolor wild-eyed ravings from certifiable lunatics.

[Rashputin]

The only small problem with this is that the Dead Sea Scrolls have nothing in them that doesn't translate to the same thing that is already in the OT. Just like someone claimed that the Dead Sea Scrolls mention the piercing of the Messiah and therefore Christ was not the Messiah, this is someone (Jack Van Impe in ’05 it seems) trying to add credence to their belief in the Rapture. I think that's just before the scrolls were finally released, so I give them the benefit of the doubt and say maybe they were expecting to find the word or had heard a rumor that it was in there.

http://www.grantjeffrey.com/article/article1.htm http://www.bibleprophecyblog.com/2009/12/importance-of-dead-sea-scrolls.html And I’m positive you have been to innumerable others that make no mention of the verse you refer to because it isn’t there. Were there any merit at all to this it would be all over all the usual sites folks refer others to in order to allow them to read the whole Rapture doctrine. They’re just not all hyping and using as proof anything from the Dead Sea Scrolls.

This is taking something that is a blessing because it proves to doubters that the Old Testament and the prophesies about Christ are accurate, and you drag it into the most contentious forum you can find and taint it with an argument sure to cause those who might be seeking Christ to turn away and seek information where there isn’t constant argument.

Now, that’s a real soul winners’ attitude. Trash anything and everything to prove your point about the Rapture when it makes no difference whatsoever to finding Christ if you’re lost. Ya’ll argue this til the Rapture you’re waiting on arrives, or more likely, you find out the hard way how this drives more people away from Christ than it leads to Him. Making up or spreading made up references is even worse than the tearing from context I’ve seen in these mud wrestling matches.

May God have mercy on you for driving people away from His Son because you prefer playing games to witnessing. It is much, much, easiar. I'll grant you that.

[Quix]

Thanks for your so graciously Christian personal assault.

I think I’ll stack my reality testing up against that of the REPLACEMENTARIANS et al

any day.

[Quix]

What a stinking pile of assumptions

arguing from silence.

Impressive cognitions there.

/s

[Quix]

BTW, Holly Deo is not that much of a slouch researcher.

Sheesh.

[topcat54]

We should note at the outset, however, that most scholars doubt there is a problem of translation. [Before Jerusalem Fell Pg 47]

Gentry demonstrates a scholarly honestly before he moves on to discussing the translational and interpretative issues. Honesty … that's something you might wish to note.

In any event, the bottom line here is still that you are making a case based on fallible, human tradition. So there is obvious room for how the history is to be interpreted.

Tradition is not scripture, therefore it is not infallible.

So I guess we're done. I you come up with something new, let me know.

[topcat54]

[Rashputin]

I the original English translation from 2002 that isn’t final and has no index, so jut give me a page number for it.

Or, for the 2005 final English, give me a page number as well.

I can’t find anything like the quote you posted. I can’t find anyone talking about it, trumpeting it on the latest edition of their TV show, on their latest End Times or Dead Sea Scrolls DVD, nothing.

Let’s start with a page number and go from there, though. Do I need a particular translation, perhaps done by the person to which you refer? If so, why does it differ from the others?

[Rashputin]

Ok, I’ll check for that name in the morning or some other time. “Sheesh”. Wonderful.

[topcat54]

BTW, Holly Deo is not that much of a slouch researcher.

Rather, the epitome of a slouch researcher who cannot provide references to the original source for alleged claims. E.g.,

"The Rapture will occur suddenly. And countless thousands will vanish from the earth. Swept up to heaven to live with Jesus and escape the torment of the Tribulation, the others will be left behind." — The Dead Sea Scrolls

That, as they say, is a load of Bravo Sierra. Some folks are easily suckered in to whatever dung comes their way from the prophecy pimps.

[RFEngineer]

Why would the “End Times” come now? I think a time of economic distress is the worst time to pick for “End Times” - compared to the early 2000’s when everyone was living off of lies, borrowed money, and more lies like there was no tomorrow.

Humanity has been much more depraved than we are now in it’s timeline, and the world didn’t end.

[Quix]

THANKS FOR DEPICTING YET AGAIN

THE QUALITY OF THE REPLACEMENTARIAN PERSPECTIVE!

SHOWING THAT
ABOUT ALL WE CAN EXPECT
FROM REPLACEMENTARIANS, PRETERISTS ET AL
IS

!GIGO!

GARBAGE-IN-GARBAGE-OUT!

May God have mercy on such willful blindness and Biblical ignorance.

I can understand that posting the garbage can is about all y'all's perspective has left when the real Biblical and Historical evidence is considered.

[Rashputin]

You’re right. Why bother with the mud wrestling. This is silly and a waste of time.

Regards

[topcat54]

I do think the dating of a man’s life and whereabouts would fall under history rather then theology.

You do realize that the transmission of history is a fallible process, don't you?

[CynicalBear]

>>So I guess we’re done. I you come up with something new, let me know.<<

Preterism has been and is being debunked and anyone promoting it should be done. You come in these threads and make fun of those who believe a view on prophesy built on a solid foundation with claims of “fact” then hide behind an ambiguous comment like “The date of Revelation is a fact”. Gentry himself agrees that most scholars view the late date of Revelation to be true. Come around with claims of fact all you want but be prepared to be challenged.

[CynicalBear]

>>You do realize that the transmission of history is a fallible process, don’t you?<<

Go peddle your attempts at fudging somewhere else. Besides, I thought we were “done”.