I see I misunerstood you as saying the members of the Church over the ages are unimportant, when actually you said “denominations” are unimportant. Thanks for the correction, which I will keep in mind.
Someone who regarded the Church as human institution only, bearing nothing but the sins and stinks of humanity, could set up a duality and say, "Honor one: the Church, or Christ. The Church must decrease, and Christ must increase!"
But a person who sees the Church as the Body of Christ, cannot even conceive of such a dualism. We honor Christ as the Head of the Church, and honor the Church as the Body of Christ: we don't see how they can be separated.
So I as an individual can be justly accused of any fault, (and my faults no doubt impair my witness--- I must examine my conscience on this), but as a Catholic I cannot be faulted for putting my Church above Christ, since that is a conceptual impossiblility: Christ is the Head of His Body, the Church.
We tend to understand the word "Church" in diverging ways, and this leads to serial failures to "mesh gears" in a real discussion, since half the time we're puzzling over what the other one really meant. For instance, when you say "Rome and its artifacts," I'm thinking, "Huh? Does Theo really think that the city of Rome is the author and perfecter of my faith? Or 'artifacts'? What's that: buildings? baldacchinos? bank accounts? Whattheheck is Theo talking about?"
So it's a good idea to step back once in a while (as both of us have done) to take a breath and say, "Hm, maybe I'm running down the wrong rabbit-trail here."
I am grateful that you said you agree that "2,000 years of Scriptural analysis by Christ-followers should not be rejected out-of hand, as “gay theology” does." I think that was the main point... about 80+ posts ago!
I appreciate the good discussion.
Hm. I’m not sure we’re able to make too much progress. You believe that the One True Church finds its earthly home in Rome, with the Pope as its head, with the episcopacy codifying doctrine. I don’t. Such a presupposition hinders doctrinal reconciliation.
You wrote, “Someone who regarded the Church as human institution only, bearing nothing but the sins and stinks of humanity, could set up a duality and say, ‘Honor one: the Church, or Christ. The Church must decrease, and Christ must increase!’”
I have no idea where that came from. I surely didn’t say that. Of COURSE the Church is the Bride of Christ, and though its members are daily in need of a Savior, we are considered by God to be “kings and priests” (Rev. 5:12). Though we are sinful, we are also set apart by God to be holy. We will be presented to Christ in spotless condition, and some day together enjoy a great heavenly feast. The Church is not a mere human institution (though it is made up of humans); it is conceived by God Himself.
And so it is right to give appropriate honor to the Church — not the Roman Catholic denomination in particular over other expressions of Christ’s Church, but to the Church universal which finds its fount not in Rome but in Heaven.
Again, yes, I do believe that denominations (such as the RCC) should humble themselves and affirm that ALL those whom the Lord has adopted into His family are on equal footing before Him. No particular denomination (such as the RCC) is the prime repository of the Lord’s grace and truth.
When I speak of “Rome and its artifacts,” I’m speaking of the denomination whose headquarters are situated in the Vatican, and the particular traditions observed by those in the RCC that are not explicitly Scriptural. The distinctive garments, the cathedrals, the incense, the formalized confessionals, the extraordinary deference given to Jesus’ mother, the shape of “the host,” the embracing of the Apocrypha as as legitimate as the Old and New Testaments, statues of “saints,” Canonization — those things are not prescribed by Scripture in the way they’re traditionally observed within the RCC.
I could talk of “Baptists and their artifacts” in the same way — organs, altar calls, Bible-thumpers, tent meetings. Those things are not specifically prescribed by Scripture, and are typically associated with denominations such as the Baptist denomination.
Anyway, I suppose our conversation is helpful in that it reminds me how grateful I am for the way God Himself cares for and prunes His Church, for the way He draws out a remnant (see Romans 11:5) from among people who have grown stagnant and wayward.