How The Reformation Changed The Church

frontline.org ^ | Dr. Peter Hammond

[Alamo-Girl]

Thanks for the book recommendation, dear Ruy Dias de Bivar!

[Alamo-Girl]

In my view, the ever deepening and widening divide between those who take God seriously and those who do not - whether clergy or laity - is a "sign of the times."

And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.

He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward [is] with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. - Revelation 22:10-13

[ex-snook]

"The church, before the Reformation, was a church without the Bible. "

C'mon man, without the Catholic Church there would not be any Bible.

[Gamecock]

Without the Holy Spirit there would be no Bible.

[Cronos]

Sheesh, Smvoice -- STOP READING EXCERPTS, sorry for the shouting, but it's not good to read verses out of context. I pointed this out earlier to others when proving that the Eucharist is what was inaugurated by Christ and clearly validated by Paul.

Here is 1 Cor 1 for you:

[10] Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing, and that there be no schisms among you; but that you be perfect in the same mind, and in the same judgment.

[11] For it hath been signified unto me, my brethren, of you, by them that are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you.

[12] Now this I say, that every one of you saith: I indeed am of Paul; and I am of Apollo; and I am of Cephas; and I of Christ.

[13] Is Christ divided? Was Paul then crucified for you? or were you baptized in the name of Paul?

[14] I give God thanks, that I baptized none of you but Crispus and Caius;

[15] Lest any should say that you were baptized in my name.

[16] And I baptized also the household of Stephanus; besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.

[17] For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not in wisdom of speech, lest the cross of Christ should be made void.

READ IN CONTEXT --> READ IN CONTEXT -- PAul is talking about schisms, just like the multiple groups that tear the body of Christ asunder -- one saying they are of Calvin, the other of Arminius, etc. etc.

READ IT IN CONTEXT, Paul says he baptised some but not all and emphases that the baptism is IN CHRIST's NAME, not in Paul or Apollo's name

READ IN CONTEXT and see this has nothing whatsoever to do with your WRONG, YOPIOS interpretation of it being some kind of baptism v/s preaching, but this is talking about UNITY -- READ IN CONTEXT, stop reading excerpts and quoting them as if they mean something standing on their own in the wrong context

[Cronos]

Gamecock — you’re putting an either/or when there is actually an AND —> Without the Holy Spirit there would be no Bible, without the Church there would not be canon.

[Cronos]

Ping to post 825 — our non-Church friends’ theology based on excerpts out of context

[Cronos]

Note the CONTEXT of Cornelius' baptism -- he was the FIRST GENTILE to be baptised, and this was BECAUSE the Holy Spirit did something unusual -- unlike for Jesus when the Holy Spirit descended at the time of baptism, this was different, this was the Holy Spirit talking to the Apostles telling them to preach and baptise Gentiles without first making them jews

The normal way that happened in every other place in acts and the letters is for the holy Spirit to come in baptism, and then the gifts ofthe Holy Spirit.

However, let me note -- this does not deny the efficacy of baptism, it only points out that baptism is necessary, whether before or after.

[Natural Law]

"Ping to post 825 — our non-Church friends’ theology based on excerpts out of context.

The most disturbing practice, and the one that gets them into so many convoluted theological positions is the insistence of reading verses of Paul outside the context f the Synoptic Gospels. It leads to the interpretation of a whole new Gospel and the relegation of Jesus to nothing more than another John the Baptist preparing the way for the Gospel of Paul.

They need to accept Paul for what he is and see the infinite wisdom of His Word in the context of the actual words, works, teachings, and examples of Christ.

[smvoice]

READ IN CONTEXT, CRONOS.

Paul said he was sent to preach THE GOSPEL, NOT TO BAPTIZE.

The GOSPEL that the 12 were sent to preach INCLUDED BAPTISM for remission of sins. The Gospel of the Kingdom.

If Paul did not preach and perform baptism for the remission of sins, then he was NOT preaching the same Gospel that the 12 were commissioned to preach. And INDEED he preached the GOSPEL OF THE GRACE OF GOD.

And if you will allow me, I shall include 1 Cor. 1:18 for CONTEXT. The verse you left out.

"For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness: but unto us which are saved, it is the power of God."

You see, baptism for remission of sins was not part of the Gospel of the Grace of God that was given to Paul. He preached Christ's finished work on THE CROSS as our remission of sins. Paul was sent to preach THAT GOSPEL, the Gospel of the Grace of God. NOT TO BAPTIZE FOR THE REMISSION OF SINS. That's part of the Kingdom Gospel.

Romans 1:16,17 tells you where our righteousness and remission of sins comes from. And it's NOT water baptism.

"For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for IT (the gospel of Christ) is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth...

For therein is the righteousness of God revealed.."

[Ruy Dias de Bivar]

I’ll post the verses again.

Act 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever BELIEVETH in him shall receive REMISSION of SINS.

Act 10:44 ¶ While Peter yet spake THESE WORDS, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.

Note that after this Peter asked THOSE WITH HIM if they could forbid water. he did not ask God.

[metmom]

So who doesn't believe that Jesus is God???

"No replies. "

I hope you're not holding your breath waiting for an answer.

[metmom]

What they have to do is stop the run on making it to the playoffs and snatching defeat out of the jaws of victory.

And that goes for hockey as well.

[Quix]

I AGREE WITH YOU 100%

And my family has always lived that way and we have lost 100’s of thousands of dollars accordingly. And almost the farm.

Nevertheless, I still believe . . . God will repay

the good and the bad.

[metmom]

Right after He blessed the cup Jesus went and called it *the fruit of the vine*.

Why don’t you believe His own words?

Matthew 26:29
I tell you I will not drink again of this fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father’s kingdom.”

Mark 14:25
Truly, I say to you, I will not drink again of the fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it new in the kingdom of God.”

Luke 22:18
For I tell you that from now on I will not drink of the fruit of the vine until the kingdom of God comes.”

[metmom]

No, it’s not an apology and I have done no evil.

[Natural Law]

"No, it’s not an apology and I have done no evil."

IC -

Note that she claims herself to be without sin yet claims that the Blessed Virgin was a sinner. She claims that Jesus came only to preach to the Jews and that we are not to pray to the any member of the Trinity other than God the Father. She denies the Real Presence. Shall we add to her prevarications her claim to actually be a Christian?

[RnMomof7]

You bet cha

[bkaycee]

John 6:35 Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me will not hunger, and he who believes in Me will never thirst.

Another obvious metaphor for spiritual satisfaction.

Matt 5:6 Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they will be filled.

OMG! another spiritual food metaphor

John 6:40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

Notice verse 54 ends with the same result, "raise him up on the last day". verse 54 is the metaphor for verse 40!

John 6:47"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life. 48" I am the bread of life. 49" Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died. 50"This is the bread which comes down out of heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die.

Another obvious metaphor, comparing belief to eating.

John 8:24 I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am he, you will indeed die in your sins.”

Why no mention of eating His body to the pharisees?

Augustine rightly warns that "to take signs for the things that are signified by them, is a mark of weakness and bondage" (On Christian Doctrine 3,9). Augustine is here referring to the sacrament of baptism and the celebration of the body and blood of the Lord. Thus, to confuse the bread (the sign) for the body of Christ (the signified) is, according to Augustine a mark of weakness and bondage. http://www.justforcatholics.org/a181.htm