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How The Reformation Changed The Church
frontline.org ^ | Dr. Peter Hammond

Posted on 02/05/2011 11:07:42 AM PST by Gamecock

In the book of Judges we read about another generation which arose, which knew neither the Lord nor what He had done (Judges 2:10). Today, it appears that a generation has arisen, which like Israel under the Judges, knows little of either the Lord nor of what He did during the time of the Protestant exodus and the struggles in the wilderness, which followed in the 16th and 17th century. Sometimes this is from a cowardly dislike of controversy and confrontation. But few people seem to understand either the evils from which the Reformation delivered us or the blessings which the Reformation won for us.

The Reformation delivered the Church from gross ignorance and spiritual darkness The church, before the Reformation, was a church without the Bible. And a church without a Bible is as useless as a lighthouse without light, a candlestick without a candle, or a motor vehicle without an engine. The priests and people knew scarcely anything about God’s Word or the way of salvation in Christ.

Bishop J.C. Ryle described the situation: “The immense majority of the clergy did little more than say masses and offer up pretended sacrifices, repeat Latin prayers and chant Latin hymns (which of course most of the people could not understand), hear confessions, grant absolutions, give extreme unction, and take money to get dead people out of purgatory.”

Bishop Latimer observed: “When the devil gets influence in a church, up go candles and down goes preaching.”

Quarterly sermons (that is, once every three months) were prescribed to the clergy, but not insisted upon. Latimer noted that while the mass was never left unsaid for a single Sunday, sermons might be omitted for 20 Sundays in succession. Indeed, to preach much was to incur the suspicion of being a heretic.

Bishop Hooper, who along with Bishop Latimer was burned alive at the stake under Queen Mary, did a survey in 1551 and found that out of 311 clergy in his Diocese, 168 were unable to repeat the Ten Commandments, 31 of those 168 could not even say in which part of the Scripture the Ten Commandments were to be found, 40 could not tell where the Lord’s Prayer was written, and 31 of the 40 did not even know who the author of the Lord’s Prayer was!

Bishop Ryle summarized the situation: “Before the Reformation was a religion without knowledge, without faith and without lively hope – a religion without justification, regeneration and sanctification – a religion without any clear views of Christ and the Holy Ghost. Except in rare instances, it was little better than an organized system of Mary worship, saint worship, image worship, relic worship, pilgrimages, alms giving, formalism, ceremonialism, processions, penances, absolutions, masses and blind obedience to the priests. It was a huge higgledy-piggledy of ignorance and idolatry, and serving an unknown God by deputy. The only practical result was that the priests took the people’s money and undertook to secure their salvation. And the people flattered themselves that the more they gave to the priests, the more sure they were to go to Heaven!”

The Reformation delivered the church from childish superstitions The Roman Catholic church, before the Reformation, taught its members to seek spiritual benefit from so-called relics of dead saints and to treat them with divine honor. Calvin’s “Inventory of Relics” and Hobart Seymour’s “Pilgrimage to Rome” catalog some of the ludicrous swindles which were perpetrated by the church of Rome. This included pieces of wood “of the true cross” enough to load a large ship, thorns professing to be part of the Saviour’s crown of thorns, enough to make a huge faggot, at least 14 nails said to have been used at the Crucifixion, four spearheads – each purporting to be the one which pierced our Lord’s side, at least three seamless coats of Christ, for which the soldiers cast lots, Saint James’s hand, bones of Mary Magdalene, toenails from Saint Edmund, some bread, purported to have been used by Christ at the Last Supper, a girdle of the Virgin Mary and milk from the Virgin Mary! The Royal Commissioners of Henry VIII examined a vial at the Abbey in Gloucestershire, which was said to contain the blood of Christ! The Commissioners found that it contained the blood of a duck.

There were literally thousands of profane and vile inventions, fabrications and deceptions, which Roman priests imposed on the people before the Reformation. They must have known that they were deceiving the people, yet they persisted in presenting these lies and requiring that the ignorant laity believe them. Sometimes the priests induced dying sinners to give vast tracts of lands to abbeys and monasteries, in order to atone for their bad lives. In one way or another, they were continually separating sinners from their money and accumulating property and wealth in the hands of the Roman church.

The power of the priests was practically despotic and was used for every purpose except the advancement of the Christian faith. It seemed that their primary object was power. To them confession had to be made. Without their absolution and extreme unction no professing Christian could be saved. Without their masses no soul could be redeemed from purgatory. In short, they were, to all intents and purposes, the mediators between Christ and man. To please and honor the Roman church was a devout Christian’s first duty. To injure them was the greatest of sins. One of the indulgences issued in 1498, with the authority of the Pope, claimed: “To absolve people from usury, theft, manslaughter, fornication and all crime whatsoever, except smiting the clergy and conspiring against the Pope!”

A starving man in a famine may be reduced to eating rats and rubbish, rather than die of hunger. Similarly, a conscience-stricken soul, deprived of God’s Word, should not be judged too harshly by us, if they struggled to find comfort in the most debasing superstition. However, we must never forget that it was from such superstitions which the Reformation delivered us.

The Reformation delivered the church from blatant immorality Before the Reformation, the lives of the clergy were simply scandalous. There were brothels in the Vatican. The Popes, Cardinals and Bishops openly consorted with prostitutes and engaged in the most debauched orgies. The local priests became notorious for gluttony, drunkenness and gambling. As Bishop Ryle pointed out: “To expect the huge roots of ignorance and superstition, which filled our land, to bear any but corrupt fruit, would be unreasonable and absurd.”

Contemporary art depicted friars as foxes preaching with the neck of a stolen goose peeping out of the hood behind; as wolves giving absolution, with the sheep partly concealed under their cloaks; or as apes sitting on a sick man’s bed with a crucifix in one hand and with the other hand in the suffering person’s pocket! Such public contempt in art reflects the scorn with which the clergy were held at the time.

Bishop Ryle pointed out: “But the blackest spot on the character of our pre-Reformation clergy in England is one of which it is painful to speak … their horrible contempt of the 7th Commandment … the consequences of shutting up herds of men and women in the prime of life, in monasteries and nunneries, were such that I will not defile my paper by dwelling upon them … if ever there was a plausible theory weighed in the balance and found utterly wanting, it is the favorite theory that celibacy and monasticism promote holiness … monasteries and nunneries were frequently sinks of iniquity.”

The report of the Royal Commissioners, under Henry VIII, declared: “That manifest sin, vicious, carnal and abominable living, is daily used and committed in abbeys, priories, and other religious houses of monks, cannons and nuns, and that albeit many continual visitations have been had, by the space of 200 years or more, for an honest and charitable reformation of such unthrifty, carnal and abominable living, yet that nevertheless, little or none amendment was hitherto had, but that their vicious living shamefully increased and augmented.”

It was observed that: “There is no surer recipe for promoting immorality than fullness of bread and abundance of idleness.” (Ezekiel 16:49) It is from such superstition, corruption, immorality, ignorance and idolatry that the Reformation freed the church.

The Reformation gave the church back the Bible In 1519, six men and a woman were burned at Coventry for teaching their children the Ten Commandments, the Lord’s Prayer and the Apostle’s Creed in English. Nothing seems to have alarmed and enraged the Roman priesthood as much as the spread of Bibles in the local language. It was for the crime of translating the Bible into English that the Reformer, William Tyndale, was burned at the stake. Of all the aspects which combined to make up the Reformation, no other aspect received such bitter opposition as the translation and circulation of the Scriptures. The translation of the Bible struck a blow at the root of the whole Roman Catholic system. The Bible, as the only rule of faith and conduct, freely available in the local languages, was a threat to all the superstitions and abuses of the medieval Roman popery. With the Bible in every parish church, every thoughtful man soon saw that the religion of the priests had no basis in Holy Scripture.

The Reformation opened the road to the throne of Grace The way of salvation had become blocked up and made impassible by heaps of superstitious rubble. “He who desired to obtain forgiveness had to seek it through a jungle of priests, saints, Mary worship, masses, penances, confession, absolution and the like, so that there might as well have been no throne of Grace at all.” J.C. Ryle

The Reformers hacked their way through this huge jungle of papal obstruction and cleared the way for every heavy-laden sinner to go straight to the Lord Jesus Christ for remission of sins.

The Reformation restored Biblical simplicity to worship Before the Reformation, the laity were only present at church services as passive, ignorant spectators. The elaborate, theatrical presentations of the sacraments were a solemn farce because the ceremonies and prayers were in Latin. The laity could bring their bodies to the services, but their minds, understanding, reason and spirit could take no part at all. For this reason, the 24th Article of the Church of England declared: “It is a thing totally repugnant to the Word of God and the custom of the primitive church to have public prayer in the church or to minister the sacraments in a tongue not understood of the people.”

The Reformation gave a Biblical understanding of the office of a minister Before the Reformation, the concept of the Christian ministry was sacerdotal. That is – it was understood that every clergyman was a sacrificing priest. The clergy were understood to hold the keys of Heaven and to be practically the mediators between God and man.

The Reformers brought the office of the clergy down to its Scriptural level. They stripped it entirely of any sacerdotal character. They cast out the words “sacrifice” and “altar”. They taught that the clergy were pastors, ambassadors, messengers, witnesses, evangelists, teachers and ministers of the Word and sacraments. The Reformers taught that the chief business of every Christian minister is to preach the Word and to be diligent in prayer and the reading of the Scriptures. The Reformers taught the immense superiority of the pulpit to the confessional. For this reason, where the altar used to be, the Lord’s table was placed with an open Bible, or a pulpit, showing the centrality of God’s Word in the worship of Protestant churches.

The Reformation restored a Biblical understanding of holiness Before the Reformation, it was believed that a monastic life and vows of celibacy were the only ways to escape sin and to attain sanctification. Multitudes of men and women poured into the monasteries and convents under the vain idea that this would please God and ensure their eternal salvation.

The Reformers struck at the root of this fallacy by establishing the great Scriptural principle that true religion was not to be found in retiring into convents and monasteries and fleeing from the difficulties of daily life, but in manfully facing up to our difficulties and doing our duty diligently - in every position to which God calls us. It is not by running away from the world, that we fulfill God’s call, but by courageously resisting the devil, the flesh and the world and overcoming them in daily life. That is how true holiness is to be exhibited. For this reason, the Reformers dissolved the monasteries and convents in their areas and freed the inmates to be reintegrated into normal life.

The Reformers also ordered that the Ten Commandments be set up in every parish church and taught to every child, and that our duty towards God and our neighbor be set forth in the Catechism. They insisted that you cannot become saints by shirking your duties in society.

A Heritage of Faith and Freedom We must continually thank God for the Reformation. It lit the flames of knowledge and freedom which we must ensure are never allowed to be extinguished or to grow dim. We need to continually remember that the Reformation was won for us by the blood of many tens of thousands of martyrs. It was not only by their preaching and praying, and writing and legislation, but by their sacrifices that our religious liberty, freedom of conscience and Christian heritage was won.

The Reformation found church members steeped in ignorance and left them in possession of knowledge. It found them without Bibles and left them with the Bible in every parish. It found them in darkness and left them in light. It found them bound in fear and left them enjoying the liberty and peace which only Christ can give. It found them strangers to the blood of Christ’s atonement, to faith, grace and holiness and left them with the key of all those blessings in their hands. It found them blind and left them with spiritual eyes to see. It found them slaves to superstition and set them free to serve Christ.

As Bishop Ryle declared: “Are we to return to a church which boasts that she is infallible and never changes – to a church which has never repented her pre-Reformation superstitions and abominations – to a church which has never confessed and abjured her countless corruptions? Are we to go back to gross ignorance of true religion? Shame on us, I say, if we entertain the idea for a moment! Let the Israelite return to Egypt, if he will. Let the prodigal go back to his husks among the swine. Let the dog return to his vomit. But let no Englishman with brains in his head, ever listen to the idea of exchanging Protestantism for Popery, or returning to the bondage of the church of Rome. No, indeed! … God forbid! The man who counsels such base apostasy and suicidal folly, must be judicially blind. The iron collar has been broken; let us not put it on again. The prison has been thrown open; let us not resume the yoke and return to our chains … Let us not go back to ignorance, superstition, priestcraft and immorality.”

If you have a Bible in your own language, and enjoy to read and study God’s Word, never forget that you owe that Bible to the Reformation. Brave men and women died that you could have the freedom to delight in God’s Word.

If you know the joy of sins forgiven and new life in Christ, if you are walking by faith and enjoying peace with God, never forget that you owe this priceless privilege to the Reformation.

If you enjoy Church services, Scripture choruses, Hymns, prayers and sermons in your own language, remember that for this you are also indebted to the Reformation.

If you appreciate the Biblical and practical sermons of your pastor, and his counsel, never forget that for this you are indebted to the Reformation. The Reformation is the source of many blessings. We need to ask if we are on the side of the Reformers, or of those who burned them and the Bible. “… Contend earnestly for the Faith which was once for all delivered to the saints.” Jude 3


TOPICS: General Discusssion; History; Mainline Protestant
KEYWORDS: catholicbashing; reformation; revisionisthistory
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To: Cronos; Amityschild; Brad's Gramma; Captain Beyond; Cvengr; DvdMom; firebrand; GiovannaNicoletta; ..

Evidently we are not in the same galactic cluster,

much less on the same conservative forum.


1,141 posted on 02/08/2011 12:33:13 AM PST by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: smvoice
Your interpretation that Jesus had no blood is a flawed understanding of "flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God" (1 Cor 15:50). When Jesus appeared to his disciples after his Resurrection, he said to them, "Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have" (Luke 24:39).

If you take 1 Cor 15:50, then you have to conclude that Jesus has no flesh either in heaven -->is that what you believe? also Luke 24:39 shows clearly that Jesus had flesh and bones, hence 1 Corinthians 15:50 does NOT mean what you think in context of Jesus -- Paul means that we cannot enter the kingdom of heaven as just humans but have to be transformed by Christ.

Just because Luke 24:39 doesn't mention blood, doesn't mean that you can make a jumping assumption
1,142 posted on 02/08/2011 12:33:38 AM PST by Cronos
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To: metmom

As Paul agrees at Eph. 2:20, Christ is the cornerstone.


1,143 posted on 02/08/2011 12:35:58 AM PST by count-your-change (You don't have be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
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To: blue-duncan; CynicalBear; wmfights
parents create the atmosphere

lol. "Atmosphere?" The verse says "now they are holy."

1,144 posted on 02/08/2011 12:35:58 AM PST by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: wmfights; CynicalBear; blue-duncan; roamer_1; Gamecock; Alex Murphy; HarleyD
I believe it was DR.E. that brought up infant baptism.

Nope. I don't think so. I try very hard not to bring this into discussions about the Reformation, etc., because I think it accomplishes exactly what some malcontents intended it to do - divide the faithful.

1,145 posted on 02/08/2011 12:39:20 AM PST by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: wmfights; CynicalBear; blue-duncan; roamer_1; Gamecock; Alex Murphy; HarleyD
In fact, in tracing it back, I would bet it was a Roman Catholic who brought up this division among Protestants first on this (and other) threads.

And they keep bringing it up.

1,146 posted on 02/08/2011 12:41:59 AM PST by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: roamer_1; wmfights; CynicalBear; blue-duncan; Alex Murphy; Gamecock; HarleyD
Christ is seen blotting names out, not writing them in.

Is it the Book of Life where your name is written, or the Book of Death where your name is crossed out?

God wrote the Book of Life and it is indelible. That's good news, Christian.

How then is an infant any different than one of Constantine's soldiers? There is no repentance... How can there be grace?

Because grace precedes repentance. Grace before all else.

But I have no control over their personal decisions - That is between them and the Father.

Exactly. Therefore thank God He has control over those decisions. If not, we'd all be sunk.

1,147 posted on 02/08/2011 12:49:28 AM PST by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: wmfights; CynicalBear
The Reformation Churches are declining just as the Roman Church is and the Christian Churches that are growing are Non-Denominational and Pentecostal. I don't believe infant baptism is a common practice in these Christian Churches.

The decline of Reformation churches is nothing to celebrate.

And the PCA is growing by leaps and bounds. That's a very "reformational church."

The problem with non-denominational churches is that there's nothing to stop the congregation from deciding to become Mormon or Unitarian, etc.

There is something to be said for a diagonal form of church structuring, like the Presbyterians -- organized by a representative group of congregants. This actually strengthens the Christian imperative rather than dilutes it as so many non-denominational churches tend to do.

IMO some of these churches have thrown out the strength of the Protestant faith along with the holy water rightly ditched.

1,148 posted on 02/08/2011 12:56:29 AM PST by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: Ruy Dias de Bivar
Exactly -- this was the sign from God that gentiles could be accepted into the Body of Christ. This was different from the normal way which happened in every other place in acts and the letters namely, the Holy Spirit to come in baptism, and then the gifts ofthe Holy Spirit.

This was unlike for Jesus when the Holy Spirit descended at the time of baptism, this was different, this was the Holy Spirit talking to the Apostles telling them to preach and baptise Gentiles without first making them jews, because this baptism of Cornelius was a sin.Acts 2:38,
38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Acts 22:16;
16 And now what are you waiting for? Get up, be baptized and wash your sins away, calling on his name.

1,149 posted on 02/08/2011 12:59:27 AM PST by Cronos
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To: bkaycee
yes, but read the entire thing in context at the end of John 6, Jesus rebukes those who think of what He has said as a metaphor by emphasising that
61 Aware that his disciples were grumbling about this, Jesus said to them, “Does this offend you?
62 Then what if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before!
63 The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you—they are full of the Spirit[e] and life.
64 Yet there are some of you who do not believe.”
Jesus repeats the rebuke against just thinking in terms of human logic (Calvin's main problem) by saying
John 8:15 You judge by human standards; I pass judgment on no one.
16 But if I do judge, my decisions are true, because I am not alone. I stand with the Father, who sent me.
Just using human logic as Calvinist thought does, without God's blessings behind it fails in grace.John 6:63 does not refer to Jesus's statement of his own flesh, if you read in context but refers to using human logic instead of dwelling on God's words.

Jesus's listeners in John 6:35-47 made the same mistake you did, which is to think he was speaking as a metaphor.

Yet Jesus REPEATED the same thing, saying
48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your ancestors ate the manna in the wilderness, yet they died.
50 But here is the bread that comes down from heaven, which anyone may eat and not die.
51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Whoever eats this bread will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.”
And now the crowd is openly rebellious saying “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?”
And
53 Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.
54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.
55 For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink.
56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in them.
57 Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me.
58 This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.
Note -- Jesus doesn't clear up the Metaphor, like he did in Matt. 16:5–12

By partaking of the Body and blood of Christ we DO gain eternal life, from the catechism

Jesus died on the cross to save us all from sin and the eternal separation from God that sin causes

the promise of eternal life is a gift, freely offered to us by God.

Like ours, his human nature is destined for eternal life; but unlike ours, it is perfectly exempt from sin, the cause of death Rom 5:12
12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned
; ⇒ Heb 4:15.
15 For we do not have a high priest who is unable to empathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet he did not sin.

The beatitude of eternal life is a gratuitous gift of God. It is supernatural, as is the grace that leads us there. 2 Pet 1:4; cf.
4 Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature, having escaped the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.
⇒ Jn 17:3.
3 Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

Although it is God’s grace that enables us, for these acts of ours, God tells us Rom. 2:6–7
6 God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

Gal. 6:6–10
6 Nevertheless, the one who receives instruction in the word should share all good things with their instructor.
7 Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows.
8 Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.
9 Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up.
10 Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, especially to those who belong to the family of believers


Remember clearly at the end of John 6, when Christ asks his disciples if they too will leave Him, when He told them they would need to eat His Body and drink His blood, then Peter said
"Master, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life."


Jesus alone holds the words of eternal life because He is the Word of God (the bible is the written word, but the LIVING Word is Jesus Christ)

1,150 posted on 02/08/2011 1:23:36 AM PST by Cronos
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To: Dr. Eckleburg; RnMomof7; metmom
So, does the OPC strictly follow this?
:

1,151 posted on 02/08/2011 1:27:04 AM PST by Cronos
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To: RnMomof7
RnMomof7 the 2nd command is that the men MUST BELIEVE only then are they baptized.

Don't the Presbyterians practise infant baptism?
1,152 posted on 02/08/2011 1:28:01 AM PST by Cronos
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To: boatbums; Dr. Eckleburg
Dr. E is a woman?

besides, the question was on the point of Dr. E saying that he group "preaches the Gospel", so then , does the OPC follow this?So, if Dr, E's group says that they "preaches the Gospel", do they preach and follow this too?
1,153 posted on 02/08/2011 1:33:04 AM PST by Cronos
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To: boatbums; MarkBsnr
Boatbums: we are NOT in church, we are NOT trying to replace your pastors, and we are definitely NOT your wives!!!

whoa, whoa -- don't get hysterical.if some group says it "preaches the Gospel", so then, does it follow this?

Does your group enforce this? --> note 1 Tim 2:9 which isn't restricted to church by the way...
1,154 posted on 02/08/2011 1:36:20 AM PST by Cronos
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To: boatbums; MarkBsnr
Yes, as I was talking to Quix, I said that We hope to ensure that you and others learn to trust Christ in His very OWN words, which is why we relentlessly hammer you with the truth until maybe, prayerfully, eventually, it soaks in and with the help and grace of the Holy Spirit, you wake up to the truth of Christ. Now, if you don't want to listen to Christ's very own words, that's your free will, given by God to choose or reject Him
1,155 posted on 02/08/2011 1:41:28 AM PST by Cronos
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To: caww
note -- I asked Rn and then Met if her group followed this
11 A woman[a] should learn in quietness and full submission. 12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man;[b] she must be quiet.

If a group says it completely follows the Gospel and does not follow this, isn't the first statement negated?

I think woman can and do just that...but they choose to do that. --> valid, but:
  1. By 'choose to do that' isn't it free will?'
  2. This is something that if one says one follows the NT exactly, then it is an order, and one chooses to obey it or not
  3. Paul says clearly that he does not permit a woman to teach
  4. in fact, Paul goes on to say 14 And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner.


Do you know any group that says it fully follows completely the words of the NT and also enforces:
  1. No women teaching
  2. No women assuming authority over a man
  3. women to learn in quietness
  4. women to learn in FULL submission

This is what Paul said -- learn in full submission, no teaching, no assuming authority over a man, etc. -- is there any group that says it completely follows the Gospel and also enforces these?
1,156 posted on 02/08/2011 1:59:07 AM PST by Cronos
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To: boatbums
Actually, you've made a false statement, with regards to unbaptised infants, the Church doctrine is
As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus' tenderness toward children which caused him to say: "Let the children come to me, do not hinder them,"(Mk 10 14; cf. 1 Tim 2:4.) allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism. All the more urgent is the Church's call not to prevent little children coming to Christ through the gift of holy Baptism.

1,157 posted on 02/08/2011 2:03:26 AM PST by Cronos
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
The Jews didn't question God's call for circumcision. Why should we refuse to acknowledge the circumcision of the heart, as God both commands and performs?

You're referring to Col. 2:11–12 where Paul points out how baptism is related to circumcision (which was normally done on infants for infants of those already Jews and done on adult converts)

So, then you acknowledge that Baptism, namely "circumcision of the heart" and it saves?
1,158 posted on 02/08/2011 2:05:38 AM PST by Cronos
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To: Dr. Eckleburg; CynicalBear
Dr. Eck:
That's because it isn't faith that saves, but grace.

In adults, God uses true faith in Jesus Christ as the conduit for His gift of grace.

But that Scriptural pattern doesn't preclude infants receiving that same grace. We know from John the Baptist that even infants can receive the grace of God and be saved.
Correct.
1,159 posted on 02/08/2011 2:07:13 AM PST by Cronos
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To: CynicalBear; wmfights
you're correct -- a household in Roman times or indeed in much of the world until the industrial era was a joint family with 3 or more generations living together and there would be multiple kids in that household

Hence, the baptism of the household would mean that the infants too were baptised.
1,160 posted on 02/08/2011 2:13:56 AM PST by Cronos
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