Posted on 01/21/2011 12:26:40 PM PST by marshmallow
The Catholic doctrine of the Eucharist is a real stumbling block to some Protestants who are seriously considering Catholicism. It was for me too, until I explored the subject, historically and scripturally. What follows is a summary of my deliberations.
Catholicism holds that bread and wine literally become the body and blood of Christ when they are consecrated by the priest celebrating the Mass. Oftentimes non-Catholics get hung up on the term transubstantiation, the name for the philosophical theory that the Church maintains best accounts for the change at consecration. The Churchs explanation of transubstantiation was influenced by Aristotles distinction between substance and accident.
Aristotle (384-322 B.C.), like most philosophers of his time, wanted to account for how things change and yet remain the same. So, for example, a substance like an oak tree remains the same while undergoing accidental changes. It begins as an acorn and eventually develops roots, a trunk, branches, and leaves. During all these changes, the oak tree remains identical to itself. Its leaves change from green to red and brown, and eventually fall off. But these accidental changes occur while the substance of the tree remains.
On the other hand, if we chopped down the tree and turned into a desk, that would be a substantial change, since the tree would literally cease to be and its parts would be turned into something else, a desk. According to the Church, when the bread and wine become the body and blood of Christ, the accidents of the bread and wine do not change, but the substance of each changes. So, it looks, tastes, feels, and smells like bread and wine, but it literally has been changed into the body and blood of Christ. Thats transubstantiation.
There are several reasons why it would be a mistake to dismiss transubstantiation simply because of the influence of Aristotle on its formulation. First, Eastern Churches in communion with the Catholic Church rarely employ this Aristotelian language, and yet the Church considers their celebration of the Eucharist perfectly valid. Second, the Catholic Church maintains that the divine liturgies celebrated in the Eastern Churches not in communion with Rome (commonly called Eastern Orthodoxy) are perfectly valid as well, even though the Eastern Orthodox rarely employ the term transubstantiation. Third, the belief that the bread and wine are literally transformed into Christs body and blood predates Aristotles influence on the Churchs theology by over 1000 years. For it was not until the thirteenth century, and the ascendancy of St. Thomas Aquinas thought, that Aristotles categories were employed by the Church in its account of the Eucharist. In fact, when the Fourth Lateran Council (1215) employed the language of substantial change, St. Thomas had not even been born!
It was that third point that I found so compelling and convinced me that the Catholic view of the Eucharist was correct. It did not take long for me to see that Eucharistic realism (as I like to call it) had been uncontroversially embraced deep in Christian history. This is why Protestant historian, J. N. D. Kelly, writes: Eucharistic teaching, it should be understood at the outset, was in general unquestioningly realist, i.e., the consecrated bread and wine were taken to be, and were treated and designated as, the Saviors body and blood. I found it in many of the works of the Early Church Fathers, including St. Ignatius of Antioch (A.D. 110), St. Justin Martyr (A.D. 151), St. Cyprian of Carthage, (A. D. 251), First Council of Nicaea (A. D. 325), St. Cyril of Jerusalem (A. D. 350), and St. Augustine of Hippo (A. D. 411) . These are, of course, not the only Early Church writings that address the nature of the Eucharist. But they are representative.
This should, however, not surprise us, given what the Bible says about the Lords Supper. When Jesus celebrated the Last Supper with his disciples (Mt. 26:17-30; Mk. 14:12-25; Lk. 22:7-23), which we commemorate at Holy Communion, he referred to it as a Passover meal. He called the bread and wine his body and blood. In several places, Jesus is called the Lamb of God (John 1: 29, 36; I Peter 1:19; Rev. 5:12). Remember, when the lamb is killed for Passover, the meal participants ingest the lamb. Consequently, St. Pauls severe warnings about partaking in Holy Communion unworthily only make sense in light of Eucharistic realism (I Cor. 10:14-22; I Cor. 11:17-34). He writes: The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not a participation in the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ? . . . Whoever, therefore eats and drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the body and blood of the Lord. (I Cor. 10:16; 11:27)
In light of all these passages and the fact that Jesus called himself the bread of life (John 6:41-51) and that he said that his followers must eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood (John 6:53), the Eucharistic realism of the Early Church, the Eastern Churches (both in and out of communion with Rome), and the pre-Reformation medieval Church (fifth to sixteenth centuries) seems almost unremarkable. So, what first appeared to be a stumbling block was transformed into a cornerstone.
Francis J. Beckwith is Professor of Philosophy and Church-State Studies at Baylor University. He tells the story of his journey from Catholicism to Protestantism and back again in his book, Return to Rome: Confessions of An Evangelical Catholic. He blogs at Return to Rome.
Where are the citations for THESE posts?
Or are you going to let us think they’re your own material as well?
Revelations is future Cronos...hasn't happened yet in our "Time"....and it's in our time we do live and worship.
He has already offered Himself once and the mass has THAT one-time sacrifice as it's sacrifice.
You are still saying He is being sacrificed Cronos...and that simply isn't so. No matter which time is chosen...past present or future. A Priest cannot bring Christ down into the sacrements by some hocus pocus way...and I mean no disrespect in saying it as so...but that is what it is.
Cronos, I read many and numerous articles from the Vatican site and other resources linked...they are all saying what you are trying hard to say that they aren't 'really' saying.
Call it what you want....but the ritual praticed just is not how Christ intended . Though it does give another excuse for your Priesthood to remain Priests....and the rest of the leadership all the way to Rome.
EArly morning so am off line soon.
Gotcha — the links are as quoted by blue-duncan.
As I said, this is a difference between what happens in our timeline and what is outside time
Very well written, and thank you for the lesson.
Exactly — so why would anyone deny Christ’s own words. Repeating a lie, denying Christ’s own words does not make truth. Sorry. But it doesn’t
Sorry Harley, but you’ve repeated a lie. Christ’s atonement was ONCE. Jesus’s act of physical death happened ONCE in our timeline. God sees it as in revelation. You can argue with John of Patmos if you wish.
BTW, to practice the presence of The Risen Lord is not the same as practicing cannibalism. In breaking and eating the bread and drinking the wine, the remembrance is practicing the presence of Him Who gave Himself for us. And because our Lord is risen and dwells now across the many dimensions/variables of time and space He can be just an arm’s length away, like in Daniel 5, and can hear our pleading to Him from many voices simultaneously and individually ... the Presence of The Lord is a reality Jesus was teaching His disciples with the bread and wine ‘in remembrance of Him’. He IS our Great High Priest and the Veil has been removed which could spearate us. It is up to us to practice His presence and He IS with us always, even to the ends of the earth.
I know...I was one of them whenever I heard those scriptures spoken. But I wasn't a Christian then either. I learned from the retired pastor who lead me to the Lord...to search the scriptures for myself and pray before reading that the Lord would instruct...and that was before I made a commitment to the Lord....rather when I wanted to know the truth. Best advice I was ever given! For the time would come where the Lord convinced me, thru His word, that the things the Pastor spoke of were indeed true.
My point is right from the very beginning of Christ drawing me to Himself, it was His word that enlightened my understanding, confirmed what was spoken, and eventually lead me to accept His salvation for me. I was blessed greatly to have instructors who always encouraged reading and study of the scriptures. It was never just sitting thru a Sermon...but going home afterward to check to see if the things spoken were indeed true. So it's hard for me to imagine why people don't do that....even Pastors with the best intentions can speak the wrong things.
All three accounts of the institution of the Lord's Supper in the Gospels (Matthew 26:26-29; Mark 14:22-25; Luke 22:14-23) explicitly state that Jesus took BREAD, blessed it, broke it, and gave it to his disciples saying, "Take, eat; this [i.e., this BREAD, which I have just blessed and broken and am now giving to you] is my body." Jesus uses similar language in referring to "the cup" (of wine) as "his blood."...http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/1999/9901fea2.asp http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/2001/0109sbs.asp http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/2004/0402sbs.asp
Perhaps the most explicit expression of this truth, however, is found in 1 Cor. 10:16-17, where Paul writes: "The cup of blessing that we bless, is it not a participation in the blood of Christ? The bread that we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ? Because there is one bread, we who are many are one body, for we all partake of the one bread." Paul clearly says here that we all "partake" of "BREAD" when we receive the Lord's Supper--even as we also partake of and "participate in" the true body of Christ. And he says that we all "partake" of the wine (the cup), even as we also partake of the true blood of Christ. Similarly, in 1 Cor. 11:26, Paul says: "For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until he comes." Paul expressly states here that when we receive the Lord's Supper we are "eating bread" and "drinking the cup" (wine), but he goes on to say that those who eat this bread and drink this cup are also partaking of the true body and blood of Christ.
So "real" is this participation in Christ's body and blood, in fact, that (according to Paul) those who partake of the bread and wine "in an unworthy manner" are actually guilty of "profaning the body and blood of the Lord" (1 Cor. 11:27). (Partaking of the Lord's Supper "in a worthy manner," of course, is not something that we "do" or "accomplish" on the basis of our "personal holiness" or "good works." It means receiving God's free and gracious gifts of life and forgiveness offered in the Lord's Supper in true repentance produced by the work of the Spirit through God's Law and in true faith in Christ and his promises produced by God's Spirit through the Gospel).
By the miracles of the loaves and fishes and the walking upon the waters, on the previous day, Christ not only prepared His hearers for the sublime discourse containing the promise of the Eucharist, but also proved to them that He possessed, as Almighty God-man, a power superior to and independent of the laws of nature, and could, therefore, provide such a supernatural food, none other, in fact, than His own Flesh and Blood. This discourse was delivered at Capharnaum (John 6:26-72), and is divided into two distinct parts, about the relation of which Catholic exegetes vary in opinion. Nothing hinders our interpreting the first part [John 6:26-48 (51)] metaphorically and understanding by "bread of heaven" Christ Himself as the object of faith, to be received in a figurative sense as a spiritual food by the mouth of faith. Such a figurative explanation of the second part of the discourse (John 6:52-72), however, is not only unusual but absolutely impossible, as even Protestant exegetes (Delitzsch, Kostlin, Keil, Kahnis, and others) readily concede. First of all the whole structure of the discourse of promise demands a literal interpretation of the words: "eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood". For Christ mentions a threefold food in His address, the manna of the past (John 6:31, 32, 49,, 59), the heavenly bread of the present (John 6:32 sq.), and the Bread of Life of the future (John 6:27, 52). Corresponding to the three kinds of food and the three periods, there are as many dispensers Moses dispensing the manna, the Father nourishing man's faith in the Son of God made flesh, finally Christ giving His own Flesh and Blood. Although the manna, a type of the Eucharist, was indeed eaten with the mouth, it could not, being a transitory food, ward off death. The second food, that offered by the Heavenly Father, is the bread of heaven, which He dispenses hic et nunc to the Jews for their spiritual nourishment, inasmuch as by reason of the Incarnation He holds up His Son to them as the object of their faith. If, however, the third kind of food, which Christ Himself promises to give only at a future time, is a new refection, differing from the last-named food of faith, it can be none other than His true Flesh and Blood, to be really eaten and drunk in Holy Communion. This is why Christ was so ready to use the realistic expression "to chew" (John 6:54, 56, 58: trogein) when speaking of this, His Bread of Life, in addition to the phrase, "to eat" (John 6:51, 53: phagein). Cardinal Bellarmine (De Euchar., I, 3), moreover, calls attention to the fact, and rightly so, that if in Christ's mind the manna was a figure of the Eucharist, the latter must have been something more than merely blessed bread, as otherwise the prototype would not substantially excel the type. The same holds true of the other figures of the Eucharist, as the bread and wine offered by Melchisedech, the loaves of proposition (panes propositionis), the paschal lamb. The impossibility of a figurative interpretation is brought home more forcibly by an analysis of the following text: "Except you eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, you shall not have life in you. He that eateth my flesh and drinketh my blood, hath everlasting life: and I will raise him up in the last day. For my flesh is meat indeed: and my blood is drink indeed" (John 6:54-56). It is true that even among the Semites, and in Scripture itself, the phrase, "to eat some one's flesh", has a figurative meaning, namely, "to persecute, to bitterly hate some one". If, then, the words of Jesus are to be taken figuratively, it would appear that Christ had promised to His enemies eternal life and a glorious resurrection in recompense for the injuries and persecutions directed against Him. The other phrase, "to drink some one's blood", in Scripture, especially, has no other figurative meaning than that of dire chastisement (cf. Isaiah 49:26; Apocalypse 16:6); but, in the present text, this interpretation is just as impossible here as in the phrase, "to eat some one's flesh". Consequently, eating and drinking are to be understood of the actual partaking of Christ in person, hence literally
The first line is from the document Lumen Gentium This is not a re-sacrifice. The key word is "celebrated as in "As often as the .... IS CELEBRATED on an altar" This does not imply that the work of our redemption is due to this celebration, rather that the work of our redemption is due to Christ's sacrifice and the work of redemption is carried on continuously the second line is from some other doc: CHRISTUS DOMINUS from the council -- and of course, the celebration of the Eucharistic Sacrifice is the center and culmination of the whole life of the Christian community -- you may disagree but we think Celebrating Christ's triumph over death to be very importantThen in post 859 you have a link to Presybterorum ordinatus where I said
Thus the Eucharistic Action, over which the priest presides, is the very heart of the congregation. So priests must instruct their people to offer to God the Father the Divine Victim in the Sacrifice of the Mass, and to join to it the offering of their own lives.
Line 6 is from yet ANOTHER separate, distinct document from VAtican II, SACROSANCTUM CONCILIUMAt the Last Supper, on the night when He was betrayed, our Saviour instituted the eucharistic sacrifice of His Body and Blood. He did this in order to perpetuate the sacrifice of the Cross throughout the centuries until He should come again, and so to entrust to His beloved spouse, the Church, a memorial of His death and resurrection: a sacrament of love, a sign of unity, a bond of charity, a paschal banquet in which Christ is eaten, the mind is filled with grace, and a pledge of future glory is given to usNote again what I said above -- remember that God exists out of space and time. What happened then is an eternal NOW for Him. The divine sacrifice is a NOW.
The Mass is not repeating the murder of Jesus, but is taking part in what never ends outside TIME: the offering of Christ to the Father for our sake (Heb 7:25, 9:24).
This institution of the remembrance that Jesus gave the disciples at the last supper was indeed to people that had already accepted him (except Judas who rejected him) and he said they were to every time they did it to do it in remembrance of him. He took bread in his hand and said, "This is my body." he then tore it up and gave it out to them to eat. He did the same with the cup of wine, "This is the new covenant of my blood" and he passed it around for them to drink. In each case, he said his body would be torn for them and his blood shed for them and that every time they got together they should remember him by doing the same things. I think it is kind of silly for us to be arguing over whether or not the bread actually IS his body and the wine IS his blood. The apostles sure didn't look into the cup first to be sure it wasn't real blood or turn the bread over to see if it changed into meat, they ate and drank knowing he meant figuratively. Even after that, they passed this commemoration down to their people and they passed it on to theirs' and so on. People know it isn't really human flesh and blood but when they receive them in the communion service, they are doing it in remembrance of what he did for them by taking their sins upon himself and dying for them, for us all.
Taking in an "unworthy" manner is obviously eating the bread and drinking the wine in unbelief. It in turn makes them guilty of the body and blood of Christ. They count it as of no value or worth.
But, even though for the time of the service the elements are regarded as such, after the service, the elements go back to being just the same as they were, bread and wine, and their meaning ceases. I never watched what happened to the left-overs, but I am pretty sure they didn't get kept forever. We had grape juice in little plastic cups, and what was not drunk got either poured back into the bottle or washed down the drain. The same with the broken pieces of cracker. I'm pretty sure they didn't keep it because the next time they would be stale or gone moldy. The elements then are symbolic and only remain symbolic for the duration of the communion service. I know many out there might balk at what I am saying, but I am convinced that the entire purpose of the service is as a memorial only, not as a way of attaining saving grace. The saved are the ones partaking of it, not to BE saved but because we already are and we need reminding just how much it cost Jesus to save us. We need to remember that we too should be servants to each other and treat each other in Christ as the true brothers and sisters family which we are. Sometimes I think we can get bogged down on the minor things and forget the main thing which is Christ. Like my pastor says, "The main thing is to keep the main thing the main thing."
Then why use words to make it sound like a re-sacrifice is performed? What, the Catholic Church can't afford better writers?
Who, but the devil, has granted such license of wresting the words of the holy Scripture? Who ever read in the Scriptures, that my body is the same as the sign of my body? or, that is is the same as it signifies? What language in the world ever spoke so? It is only then the devil, that imposes upon us by these fanatical men. Not one of the Fathers of the Church, though so numerous, ever spoke as the Sacramentarians: not one of them ever said, It is only bread and wine; or, the body and blood of Christ is not there present.All are free to peruse, excerpt, read etc.
Surely, it is not credible, nor possible, since they often speak, and repeat their sentiments, that they should never (if they thought so) not so much as once, say, or let slip these words: It is bread only; or the body of Christ is not there, especially it being of great importance, that men should not be deceived. Certainly, in so many Fathers, and in so many writings, the negative might at least be found in one of them, had they thought the body and blood of Christ were not really present: but they are all of them unanimous.
Good post and I agree...although I do find the catholic ritual more than offensive in how they view the elements.
I watched a Mass on video...and you know that little box they put the cup in afterwords? It’s all covered with gold paint etc...and the Priest covers it under his cloak while this big procession marches to where that little box is...and someone carries an umbrella over the Priests head as they march. As I watched this I wondered where they were going and why all the fuss.....well there they were where that alter was with that little box all decked out. But when the Priest opened the box to put the chalice in..you could see inside....no cold...just paint drippings and darkness. For such a fuss being made of this goblet you would of thought they’d make the inside of the box even more special. I wondered what they did with it later on...I suspect it went down the drain also.
Caww — firstly, do you now agree that the mass is not a re-killing, this is NOT a re-sacrifice of Christ — please do not repeat a false statement like that.
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