Posted on 01/21/2011 12:26:40 PM PST by marshmallow
The Catholic doctrine of the Eucharist is a real stumbling block to some Protestants who are seriously considering Catholicism. It was for me too, until I explored the subject, historically and scripturally. What follows is a summary of my deliberations.
Catholicism holds that bread and wine literally become the body and blood of Christ when they are consecrated by the priest celebrating the Mass. Oftentimes non-Catholics get hung up on the term transubstantiation, the name for the philosophical theory that the Church maintains best accounts for the change at consecration. The Churchs explanation of transubstantiation was influenced by Aristotles distinction between substance and accident.
Aristotle (384-322 B.C.), like most philosophers of his time, wanted to account for how things change and yet remain the same. So, for example, a substance like an oak tree remains the same while undergoing accidental changes. It begins as an acorn and eventually develops roots, a trunk, branches, and leaves. During all these changes, the oak tree remains identical to itself. Its leaves change from green to red and brown, and eventually fall off. But these accidental changes occur while the substance of the tree remains.
On the other hand, if we chopped down the tree and turned into a desk, that would be a substantial change, since the tree would literally cease to be and its parts would be turned into something else, a desk. According to the Church, when the bread and wine become the body and blood of Christ, the accidents of the bread and wine do not change, but the substance of each changes. So, it looks, tastes, feels, and smells like bread and wine, but it literally has been changed into the body and blood of Christ. Thats transubstantiation.
There are several reasons why it would be a mistake to dismiss transubstantiation simply because of the influence of Aristotle on its formulation. First, Eastern Churches in communion with the Catholic Church rarely employ this Aristotelian language, and yet the Church considers their celebration of the Eucharist perfectly valid. Second, the Catholic Church maintains that the divine liturgies celebrated in the Eastern Churches not in communion with Rome (commonly called Eastern Orthodoxy) are perfectly valid as well, even though the Eastern Orthodox rarely employ the term transubstantiation. Third, the belief that the bread and wine are literally transformed into Christs body and blood predates Aristotles influence on the Churchs theology by over 1000 years. For it was not until the thirteenth century, and the ascendancy of St. Thomas Aquinas thought, that Aristotles categories were employed by the Church in its account of the Eucharist. In fact, when the Fourth Lateran Council (1215) employed the language of substantial change, St. Thomas had not even been born!
It was that third point that I found so compelling and convinced me that the Catholic view of the Eucharist was correct. It did not take long for me to see that Eucharistic realism (as I like to call it) had been uncontroversially embraced deep in Christian history. This is why Protestant historian, J. N. D. Kelly, writes: Eucharistic teaching, it should be understood at the outset, was in general unquestioningly realist, i.e., the consecrated bread and wine were taken to be, and were treated and designated as, the Saviors body and blood. I found it in many of the works of the Early Church Fathers, including St. Ignatius of Antioch (A.D. 110), St. Justin Martyr (A.D. 151), St. Cyprian of Carthage, (A. D. 251), First Council of Nicaea (A. D. 325), St. Cyril of Jerusalem (A. D. 350), and St. Augustine of Hippo (A. D. 411) . These are, of course, not the only Early Church writings that address the nature of the Eucharist. But they are representative.
This should, however, not surprise us, given what the Bible says about the Lords Supper. When Jesus celebrated the Last Supper with his disciples (Mt. 26:17-30; Mk. 14:12-25; Lk. 22:7-23), which we commemorate at Holy Communion, he referred to it as a Passover meal. He called the bread and wine his body and blood. In several places, Jesus is called the Lamb of God (John 1: 29, 36; I Peter 1:19; Rev. 5:12). Remember, when the lamb is killed for Passover, the meal participants ingest the lamb. Consequently, St. Pauls severe warnings about partaking in Holy Communion unworthily only make sense in light of Eucharistic realism (I Cor. 10:14-22; I Cor. 11:17-34). He writes: The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not a participation in the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ? . . . Whoever, therefore eats and drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the body and blood of the Lord. (I Cor. 10:16; 11:27)
In light of all these passages and the fact that Jesus called himself the bread of life (John 6:41-51) and that he said that his followers must eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood (John 6:53), the Eucharistic realism of the Early Church, the Eastern Churches (both in and out of communion with Rome), and the pre-Reformation medieval Church (fifth to sixteenth centuries) seems almost unremarkable. So, what first appeared to be a stumbling block was transformed into a cornerstone.
Francis J. Beckwith is Professor of Philosophy and Church-State Studies at Baylor University. He tells the story of his journey from Catholicism to Protestantism and back again in his book, Return to Rome: Confessions of An Evangelical Catholic. He blogs at Return to Rome.
That's not true...the Bible does not teach we are saved thru Baptism...nor would it.But it is the teaching of the catholic church. However... Even the thief on the cross wasn't Baptized, yet he went to be with Christ that very day. We are saved thru Christ...that's it. Nothing we can do or ritual we perform changes that. He is sufficient, and we are complete in Him.
What happened? You're the new guy so you got stuck with being the late shift RCC Answer Man???
Here's a clue to what you just spouted. Nobody who is In Christ can be in rebellion "to the body of Christ". It's an impossibility. Let's see if you can figure out why.
You need to go back and read peoples posts again...and quit saying people made statements they haven’t made. What they have done is posted that which the catholic doctrines state, from the Vatican. Your arguements are with those in your leadership who are stating these things you acuse me of.
past my bed time, so this is all for tonight. Acts 22:16, Saul had his sins washed away by baptism. God is the one who does the baptizing, thru the Church, His Body. the thief was saved as everyone who was saved in the OT was. in the NT, “he who believes and is baptized will be saved” we must come thru the door established by Jesus, not what seems right to us. again, your way of thinking was unknown for 1,500 years, that should give you pause.
You KNOW no such thing..... I have made no statments or comments concerning who determined what were sccriptures or not. Not one comment. So stop saying you know my thoughts...you don't.
Thankfully, the
REAL CHURCH UNIVERSAL
has had only incidental anythings to do with small pockets of believers in the
Vatican Alice In Wonderland School Of Theology and Reality Mangling in it’s 1700 year existence.
Otherwise, what a horror to present to the world as “Christianity.”
Discuss the issues all you want, but do not make it personal.
For the first time I’m so glad someones going to bed!
Quix, you and others have spent years attempting to let the truth be seen and heard here on FR. Trying to reason with some I’m afraid is a waste of breath...they do not want to know the truth. The walls they out up time and again indicates they are content to remain behind them. What say you?
Except for the pesky detail that for all Catholics castigate non-Catholics for not taking the words of Jesus above other Scripture, they sure are quick enough to elevate anything and everything else above Jesus' own words when it suits their purposes.
Jesus told us time and again to simply believe Him and in Him.
The thief on the cross had no time to be baptized. The tax collector praying at the temple went away justified.
When asked by the Jews what works to do for eternal life, He told them that the work of God is to believe in Him.
He told us time and again, that belief is what justifies and condemns tradition, the very thing that the RC church places above the very words of Jesus.
That Catholic church has changed radically over the centuries. There is no consistency in what it believes. It places way too much stock in tradition and the opinion pieces of ancient writings. Many of those whom the church considers church fathers, have works attributed to them that turned out to either be fraudulent or heretical.
The RC church has a fantastic tendency to pick and choose what to believe to support its doctrine and discard anything that disagrees with it, Scripture included.
If that's the kind church you want to put your stock in, one built on sinking sand, by all means, you have that right. But as you like to say, *by their fruit you will know them* and the fruit of the Catholic church that we see today is anything but godly. It's corrupt to the core. It's reaping in the whirlwind what was sown in the wind.
I'll remain part of the one built on the Rock of Jesus and His Word.
But you can't say you weren't warned.
I’ve heard an interesting take on “born of water”....referencing when a womans “water” breaks prior to delivery. “Born of water”. Born of the flesh.
Yes, what you said is true...so I suppose people should clarify which Baptism they’re referencing. That’s not always clear.
When Jesus is referring to being born physically, and says, *born of water*, it only makes sense that it refers to physical birth.
If He meant baptism, that would have been the perfect time to say so.
And He didn’t.
Amazing me still the blindness there is to the truth and the solid arguements presented to evidence such. What’s alarming though is to imagine the day when they will indeed know the truth....what they missed... and the freedom they will never know within the confines of Vatican teachings.
In Mark 16:16, Jesus says,"Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned." So, to me, he is saying that those who believe WILL be baptized (by the Spirit) and will be saved and those who do not believe will be condemned. Notice he doesn't say "those who do not believe and are not baptized will be condemned" but those who do not believe. Many people get water baptized as children and go on to be atheists, so it obviously is not the water baptism that saves.
Understanding this was an eyeopener for me. I remember the sermon well when that sunk in. I went home and studied the scriptures on the matter. All the scriptures surrounding that conversation confirmed to me Jesus ment physical Birth.
Though I didn’t believe Baptism saves, and do not now....my reason , at the time I was Batized was simple...I wanted to follow Jesus...and He was baptised. Such simple unclutered faith then...but then He sends us to school...:)
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