[Cronos]

" to put ones faith and trust in church leadership is not wise" --> come on -- don't ______ (fill in the blanks with any denomination) trust in their church leadership? Also, do note that we put our faith in Christ and we trust the leadership to follow the unchanging Faith. The shepherds fate is fraught with danger -- the path to hell is lined with the skulls of bishops.

especially considering the historical background of those offices
two arguments against:
1. You mean the historical background of who occupied those offices, which can be said about any temporal office including the POTUS
2. The infallibility rests with THE office and this has held true even when the office was occupied by such rogues like Alexander VI -- if you read his dogma, even this horrible man was somehow stopped from preaching false dogma or making fallible statements.

We believe the Holy SPirit alone does this, namely keeping the Church true as a whole. Nothing else explains it

[caww]

That's right..I don't trust church leadership to always follow what Christ would that they do...regardless of denomination. The Spirit of Christ of course is true to believers as much to the Leadership...but man is fickle and does not always listen as he ought. In fact can be and do contrary wise.

But it is one thing for any man in leadership to be tempted and fail...it's another when he gives little if any evidence he's interested in anything more than advancing his own selfish gain.

Like politics there are too many assuming /appointed to leadership which have no business being there in the first place. Corruption of those offices and how they are appointed is often overlooked or excused. It's in your church and others today. We see the evidence.

Jesus is our Shepherd, Cronos, and it is He who directs, cares and feeds us. It is to Him we look and as we do He warns us of wolfs beforehand, and He did do just that saying they would even come from within the fold...some heed...some will not or cannot for they are not His to begin with.

But when you consider the politics of these offices, which is always included as well..then one needs to especially take heed of just who and what leadership is about and doing. Who is appointing them is perhaps even more important...and how do they themselves reflect Christ.

I still say if a church I attended had a long history of appointing bad leadership, I would in time simply go to another church...and have the freedom to determine that. Unfortunately that option is seldom available to catholics without a whole host of issues and loops to jump thru.

So I do wonder how it is that for so long the people endured such tyrants....the fact of the matter is God has great patience with the church leadership, but in time He will act 'thru His people'...appoint a spokesman to inform...and thus... in that time...the Reformation. Enough was enough and God moved His people to act.

[metmom]

1. You mean the historical background of who occupied those offices, which can be said about any temporal office including the POTUS

The current POTUS does not claim divine appointment and divine authority over the whole earth and men's souls.....yet.

The Catholic church takes the moral high ground and claims to be the only mechanism by which men must come to God. The current POTUS has not done that......yet....

With those kinds of claims, the historical background of the church condemns it mightily. They claim the higher standard, they are obligated to live it. As it is, the RC church's hands are stained with the blood of martyrs.

This excusing by Catholics of the heinous sins perpetrated by the Catholic church is disgusting.