The Not So Secret Rapture

reformed.org ^ | W. Fred Rice

[topcat54]

Evangelical book catalogs promote books such as Planet Earth: The Final Chapter, The Great Escape, and the Left Behind series. Bumper stickers warn us that the vehicle’s occupants may disappear at any moment. It is clear that there is a preoccupation with the idea of a secret rapture. Perhaps this has become more pronounced recently due to the expectation of a new millennium and the fears regarding potential Y2K problems. Perhaps psychologically people are especially receptive to the idea of an imminent, secret rapture at the present time. Additionally, many Christians are not aware that any other position relative to the second coming of Jesus Christ exists. Even in Reformed circles there are numerous people reading these books. Many of these people are unaware that this viewpoint conflicts with Scripture and Reformed Theology.

[metmom]

It is, but Rome's claim is based upon her infallible declaration that she is who she says she is, according to her AIM, which is infallibly declared to be infallible when speaking in accordance with her infallibly declared formula. And which presumes that she is worthy of the implicit trust that she requires.

Alrighty then.....

[MarkBsnr]

It is not a matter of disagreement; it was a matter of concern for their souls and a concern that they would lead others down the same or similar paths.

Did they go too far? In some cases, no question.

However, this is something that needs to be said: a declaration of heresy or excommunication is not a condemnation to hell by the Church. It is the Pauline expulsion from the Church by those who would not act as Christians. It is rarely done.

I might if I accepted the validity of your logic and followed the example of the Popes instead of Christ’s teaching and example.

This country's early colonies were mostly iron fisted theocracies who killed and drove off those from other denominations.

[caww]

Good post and very interesting to follow. Thank you.

[Alamo-Girl]

Thank you for oh so much for your outstanding essay-post, dearest sister in Christ!

To me, it's like gunpowder.

The Chinese of course discovered gunpowder, but they didn't figure out how to put it in a barrel with a lead ball as a military weapon or hunting tool.

I'm sure there are many other such examples of the Western mind innovating from a primitive Eastern idea, discovery or invention.

[MarkBsnr]

Instead of finger pointing, could you just actually condemn what the Catholic church did as wrong?

You give me wikipedia and ask me to blanket condemn based upon that? Why not toss in some Phil Schaff and top it off with some Paul Blanshard?

[Alamo-Girl]

It made no sense to me either, dearest sister in Christ!

[caww]

Am enjoying following this debate...

[MarkBsnr]

Had I been consulted he might have been permanently retired much sooner, maybe that’s why I’m not in charge of such decisions.

Yeah, give Caesar's to Caesar, and Herod's to Herod or something like that. Remember though, that Paul approved of those in charge, and asked us to pray for them.

I think it was said of Herod by a contemporary that it was better to be Herod’s pig than his subject.

Hadn't heard that before. I'm not surprised, though.

[Alamo-Girl]

Probably the best thing is to avoid "obsessing" of all kinds, and simply "let go and let God"....

Being guided by the Light of His Truth. No darkness can prevail against that.

Amen!

Thank God for you, dearest sister in Christ!

[Alamo-Girl]

Interesting. Thank you for sharing your insights, dear YHAOS!

[metmom]

I said that they were lost. I did not say that they were damned.

Semantics. Explain the practical difference.

[metmom]

And it did not escape my notice that you never answered one of the questions.

[Lera]

You should read this

The Secret History of the Jesuits
http://arcticbeacon.com/books/Paris-The_Secret_History_of_Jesuits%281975%29.pdf

Written by a former Jesuit Priest

[boatbums]

Do you believe in double-predestination? That God pre-damns people to hell?

I do not believe it in that way. Rather, God knows the end from the beginning, right? He knows before we even existed whether we would believe in Christ or not. He predestined that those who believed would be conformed to the image of Christ. He predestined, as well, that those who rejected Christ would be condemned. In light of this, is it really wrong to say God pre-damns someone?

Again, since God knows before we are created whether we will end up in heaven or hell, based on our belief or unbelief, and he STILL allows us to be born knowing that some of us will not be with him in heaven, then, I can see why some people express this concept in this way.

Personally, I would not say it that way, that God predetermines who will believe and who will not. I wouldn't say that God intentionally creates some people to go to hell and they have no choice in the matter. I DO believe that God so loved THE WORLD, just like Jesus said, and that he gave his son that WHOSOEVER believes in him will have eternal life. It sounds to me like Jesus is saying that we must make the choice to trust in him and that God doesn't "pre-program" us to do so or not to do so.

[count-your-change]

“I see. When Protestants do it, it’s okay.”

Nay, not so. In this the Reformation did not reform but only changed leadership. Murder in the name of Christ is murder.

But Catholics claim that THEY have the one true and apostolic church and must be viewed from the standpoint of their claims about themselves.

If there are Protestants justifying similar acts I would respond in the same way.

As Jesus said to the Pharisees at Luke 11:48,’You are witnesses of the deeds of your forefathers and you give consent to them, these killed the prophets and you build tombs to them’.

Anyone can go to the Catholic Encyclopedia and read the specious reasoning justifying and excusing and blame shifting ad nauseum.

[betty boop]

Why not reread the passage?

Well so I did.

And so am still wondering why you think Jesus Christ had any problem at all resisting Satan's temptations. In the first place, Jesus didn't want any of the things Satan offered him (not that any of them were in Satan's gift in the first place).

Please do clue me in on the details I'm obviously missing here, dear MarkBsnr....

[Alamo-Girl]

How do you know that you are actually following God?

You already asked that and I answered it at post 2315

If you are filled with the Holy Spirit, then you can resist; if you are not truly filled, then you can succumb.

A person who does not have the Spirit indwelling him is not a Christian:

But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. - Romans 8:9

And again,

Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. - John 3:5-8

To your objections concerning the Trinity revelations of Isaiah 9:6, Matthew 28:19 and Romans 8:9 I aver that the words of God can only be spiritually discerned.

The people in the following passage were physically hearing Jesus but they could spiritually hear Him:

Why do ye not understand my speech? [even] because ye cannot hear my word. – John 8:43

Lexicons, commentaries, seminaries, counselors, miracles, logic and so on will not help someone who does not have "ears to hear."

And Moses called unto all Israel, and said unto them, Ye have seen all that the LORD did before your eyes in the land of Egypt unto Pharaoh, and unto all his servants, and unto all his land; The great temptations which thine eyes have seen, the signs, and those great miracles: Yet the LORD hath not given you an heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day. And I have led you forty years in the wilderness: your clothes are not waxen old upon you, and thy shoe is not waxen old upon thy foot. - Deuteronomy 29:2-5

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: - John 10:27

Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned. - I Corinthians 2:14

The rest of your post is exalting the Catholic Church.

Nevertheless, again I say, to God be the glory, not man, never man.

The earth [is] the LORD'S, and the fulness thereof; the world, and they that dwell therein. – Psalms 24:1

The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork. Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth knowledge. [There is] no speech nor language, [where] their voice is not heard. – Psalms 19:1-3

Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created. - Revelation 4:11

I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty. - Revelation 1:7-8

[Cronos]

1. There is a difference between a person's opinion and fact and doctrine. Too many times I see non-Catholics read a newspaper or an internet poll of 41 people and jump to conclusions

2. I've never read any CAtholic saying the Church was the author. It's always put that the Church collected and preserved scripture -- and that is the fact. The Church was the instrument by which canon was compiled. Even the reformatters believed that.

[boatbums]

HD made an error as an inanimate object cannot be infallible, but it can be inerrant (which the Bible is)

I disagree. Since "infallible" is an adjective and adjectives describe nouns or pronouns, the Bible can certainly be called infallible. According to "Aunt Merriam":

infallible - 3 dictionary results

in·fal·li·ble   /ɪnˈfæləbəl/ [in-fal-uh-buhl] –adjective

1. absolutely trustworthy or sure: an infallible rule.
2. unfailing in effectiveness or operation; certain: an infallible remedy.
3. not fallible; exempt from liability to error, as persons, their judgment, or pronouncements: an infallible principle.