Posted on 01/14/2011 5:57:52 PM PST by topcat54
Evangelical book catalogs promote books such as Planet Earth: The Final Chapter, The Great Escape, and the Left Behind series. Bumper stickers warn us that the vehicle’s occupants may disappear at any moment. It is clear that there is a preoccupation with the idea of a secret rapture. Perhaps this has become more pronounced recently due to the expectation of a new millennium and the fears regarding potential Y2K problems. Perhaps psychologically people are especially receptive to the idea of an imminent, secret rapture at the present time. Additionally, many Christians are not aware that any other position relative to the second coming of Jesus Christ exists. Even in Reformed circles there are numerous people reading these books. Many of these people are unaware that this viewpoint conflicts with Scripture and Reformed Theology.
(Excerpt) Read more at reformed.org ...
There is a great difference between knowledge and belief. How do you know that you are following Jesus. You may believe it, but that is not knowledge. If you say that you follow the Bible, remember that all the major first and second millennium heresies can be defended from the Bible, including the Gnosticism that many so-called Christians indulge heavily in.
Which teachings of Christ do you not follow? The Sacrifice of the Eucharist is one, I believe. Confession and repentence? Salvation based in part on deeds (Matthew 25)?
Most of the people who proclaim that it is all about Jesus really believe that it is all about Paul, or Isaiah, or the dude that looks back at them in the mirror because that dude cherry picks his own selection of Scripture and then interprets it on his own. Most of the ones that I have come into contact with or read about, anyway.
No, the bishops were out zealously teaching and evangelizing. But the Faith was still developing 300 years later - look at the differences between the three major Creeds - the Apostles', the Nicene (and the further Nicene-Constantinople), and the Athenasian. The early Church didn't teach explicit Trinity - that came centuries after. And many major Fathers of the Church were lost when they could not accept Church definitions (usually in response to major heresies) such as Origen.
Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. I am the vine, ye [are] the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. - John 15:4-5
The greatest problem that the early Church (and come to think of it, the current Church) had is just what that abiding consists of and getting people to actually abide.
The Catholic Church is not overwhelming liberal. The Catechism, the Sacraments and the strong moral teachings of the Church itself are evidence, especially when most of the rest of those labelled Christians are racing each other to see who can fall completely into corruption the fastest.
Those Anglicans who are still Christian are swimming the Tiber or heading East. Missouri and Wisconsin Synod Lutherans are holding their theological postion, but they are losing congregants fast, and the rest of the Lutherans seem to have abandoned Christianity. Same as the Methodists. Same as the Presbyterians - even the PCA is trying to get female clergy in imitation of the PCUSA. And so on. The relatively few non denominationals that practice Christian orthodoxy seem to fold up and die when their pastor retires or dies.
The thing that may appear to those outside the Faith is that the Church fosters and tolerates too much. Slowly, especially certain territories have swung away from strict adherence - but that has always happened. Look at the letters of Paul for evidence. The Church is slow to react - it always has been. Bishop Marcion was preaching increasing heresy for many years, for instance, until Marcionism was finally declared heretical. And the history is full of examples.
I am glad you are prolife, but would like to ask you if you agree with the RC position on the infallibility of Scripture and interpretive method? Such as expressed in Providentissimus Deus?
I believe that after all the translations (and English is a lousy theological language - God gave us the entire Bible in Greek), that the Scripture that you have in the Bible you are currently reading is probably close, but not inerrant. The interpretation, if led by the Holy Spirit, is. I believe that the Church's interpretation is correct - infallible - given the role of the Holy Spirit in the Church (commissioning it at Pentecost with Jesus telling us that He will be will us (the Church) always).
Providentissimus Deus was written to address apparent contradictions between Scripture and the physical sciences or one portion of Scripture and another. It is the Church's interpretation - and remember that bats are not birds; rabbits do not chew cud; locusts, grasshoppers and beetles have six feet, not four; and there are no flying four footed animals. There are a whole bunch of NT quotes from the OT which don't exist in the OT in either Greek or Hebrew.
I believe the Bible can be interpreted correctly, just not by every Tom, Dick and Luther's milkmaid.
I am well aware of the decay the Anglican and other institutionalized churches, which, like Rome, evidence less commitment and more declension in moral views and certain key truths than their evangelical counterparts (but who are also overall declining), as shown by survey after survey. This does not mean the RCC is officially liberal, but what one effectually coveys by toleration is an issue.
Meanwhile many Catholics would rather see a John Kerry remain a liberal Catholic rather than become a conservative evangelical, while a monk told me that all Catholics were damned who do not believe stories like Jonah and the Fish are literal. And this is the church he wanted me to join.
But having been a RC, even for some years after i was manifestly born again, i do understand.
For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded [is] death; but to be spiritually minded [is] life and peace. Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. – Romans 8:1-9
This is true. The works that please God are those done in faith, God-given in Christ to save the damnable and destitute sinner, on His blood-expense and righteousness. Then, as with Christ, it is Him who dwells within that does the work in us and thru us, as we yield to His Spirit.
So one must have the Spirit first to do such, and if we truly rest by faith in the Jesus of the Bible as Savior we will respond to Him as Lord. according to the light we have. If we abide, we will produce, and it is actually God’s “job” to produce the fruit.
The Church doctrine is that even in the darkness, there is hope. There is hope for John Kerry, as there is for every man. Admittedly, I don't have much for him, though.
But having been a RC, even for some years after i was manifestly born again, i do understand.
Can you expand on this?
It should be. It is not. Remember that God failed to convince the Jews of the divinity of Jesus. The whole history of Judaism is God trying to get their attention for more than a day at a time and failing. Things are as they are. Look at those so-called Christians who abandon the faith for the charlatans that Luke and the Apostles warned us about.
Truly, the fruits are God's not ours:
This is God's will.
The Song of Moses (Deuteronomy 32) prophesied this, Paul explained it (Romans 11) and we see it underscored in Revelation and as the Song of Moses is sung along with the Song of the Lamb in heaven.
The prophecy in the Song of Moses:
And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this [is] my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
As concerning the gospel, [they are] enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, [they are] beloved for the fathers' sakes. – Romans 11:25-28
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty. - Revelation 1:7-8
Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, [take heed] lest he also spare not thee.
Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in [his] goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural [branches], be graffed into their own olive tree?
For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this [is] my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
As concerning the gospel, [they are] enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, [they are] beloved for the fathers' sakes.
For the gifts and calling of God [are] without repentance. - Romans 11:18-29
The jealousy of Israel is fulfilled when Christ returns and they recognize "Who He IS."
That doesn't quite square with the idea of the salvation of Israel, does it?
For the gifts and calling of God [are] without repentance. - Romans 11:18-29
However, the rejection of them are.
This is according to His will.
And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: For this people's heart is waxed gross, and [their] ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with [their] eyes, and hear with [their] ears, and should understand with [their] heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. But blessed [are] your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear. – Matthew 13:14-16
Your homepage is a wonderful resource. I wish I had found it sooner!
Interesting, would you not say, the amount of pleading, threatening, punishing and so on of the Israelites, and they still acted as they did. God picked a really fickle bunch of the self indulgent, didn't He?
Thank God is anything edifies. But there is not much there, and i tried to have a few things i did not see anywhere. But this and other things keeps me busy, but i need to be and so more. Ps. 138:8
They have moved me to jealousy with [that which is] not God; they have provoked me to anger with their vanities: and I will move them to jealousy with [those which are] not a people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation. – Deuteronomy 32:21
I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but [rather] through their fall salvation [is come] unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. – Romans 11:11
And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this [is] my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
As concerning the gospel, [they are] enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, [they are] beloved for the fathers' sakes. – Romans 11:25-28
Yes, and this is super salesman Paul both reassuring the Christian converts from Judaism that their friends and relations who have not converted still have God's promise of salvation, and the pagan converts that they are just as validly saved as are the Jews - the People of God. This letter was written before the full fledged split of Christianity from Judaism - where the Jews finally got tired of this new religion kidnapping and redefining much of their religion and repudiated them completely. And, with the past 2000 years of history validating that judgement.
Please note that the concept of adopting in Gentiles is a completely NT idea and not in the OT at all. Nothing in Deuteronomy or anywhere else says that God will bring in anyone else, only that He will use the gentile nations as tools on the lives and situation of the Jewish nation. So linking Deuteronomy and Paul's epistle to the Romans is not really valid.
For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews' religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it: And profited in the Jews' religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers. But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called [me] by his grace, To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood: Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus.
Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and abode with him fifteen days. But other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord's brother. – Galatians 1:11-19
And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this [is] my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
As concerning the gospel, [they are] enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, [they are] beloved for the fathers' sakes. – Romans 11:25-28
Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, [take heed] lest he also spare not thee.
Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in [his] goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural [branches], be graffed into their own olive tree?
For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this [is] my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
As concerning the gospel, [they are] enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, [they are] beloved for the fathers' sakes.
For the gifts and calling of God [are] without repentance. - Romans 11:18-29
God's Name is I AM.
And they're different from you and I just how?
Do you think that any other group of people God picked would have done better?
Adam and Eve were created perfect and sinless. They were in the perfect, uncorrupted environment, walked with God in the cool of the day, and STILL chose to turn their backs on Him. It sounds like they were pretty self-indulgent to me.
Not to mention, that there isn't any organized religion, Catholicism included, that isn't filled with fickle self-indulgent people.
You don't suppose that it's simply because of human nature instead of the particular group they are, now do you?
Placemarker
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