The Not So Secret Rapture

reformed.org ^ | W. Fred Rice

[topcat54]

Evangelical book catalogs promote books such as Planet Earth: The Final Chapter, The Great Escape, and the Left Behind series. Bumper stickers warn us that the vehicle’s occupants may disappear at any moment. It is clear that there is a preoccupation with the idea of a secret rapture. Perhaps this has become more pronounced recently due to the expectation of a new millennium and the fears regarding potential Y2K problems. Perhaps psychologically people are especially receptive to the idea of an imminent, secret rapture at the present time. Additionally, many Christians are not aware that any other position relative to the second coming of Jesus Christ exists. Even in Reformed circles there are numerous people reading these books. Many of these people are unaware that this viewpoint conflicts with Scripture and Reformed Theology.

[Judith Anne]

What’s your church? Let’s compare, legitimately. If your church is so great, compared to Catholics, what is it? Let’s find out if your beliefs are so much better that nobody sins in your church.

[Judith Anne]

Cronos, it’s not only to be READ but OBEYED. Do you think the RCC is obeying God’s Word?

Is your church obeying God's word? That would be a first, and probably make news! Tell us what church, so we can all go there and see!

[Cronos]

Thanks Judy. I think the facts below speak for themselves

the Church wants those 0.53-1.8% of convicted ex-priests to stay in prison and rot. They have abused their authority and worse, abused their vocation. They will burn in the hottest fires of hell as they have not been the shepherds to their flock --

secondly, give me % terms and give me a comparison to your group or any other Christian group. What is the conviction rate of pastors in your group who have molested children?

The Associated Press reported that 250 out of 47,000 priests had been dismissed or had resigned by the time the bishops met last June, though it is not clear that all of the dismissals and resignations were due to abuse. Even if all 250 priests were abusers, it would still amount to about one-half of one percent (0.53 percent) of the 47,000 priests currently serving in America, a proportion far smaller than in most media accounts. Since some of the allegations involved priests who are now dead, the proportion of offenders within today's priesthood is significantly smaller than one-half of one percent. Unquestionably those who were convicted are dismissed and no matter that psychological "experts" had assured bishops in the 60s and 70sthat a month's stay at a treatment facility would "cure" this

What are the percentage conviction and dismissal rate of molesters in YOUR group or any other Christian group, I ask? Compare these and tell me 0.5% or more?

A 1992 study conducted in the Archdiocese of Chicago is the largest such study done to date. It examined the personnel files of all priests serving in the diocese. It found that out of the 2,252 priests who had served from 1951 to 1991, allegations of sexual abuse had been made against 59 of them, or 2.6 percent.

The study adopted a policy of favoring the accuser in cases of doubt, accepting hearsay testimony (which would not be allowed in court), and adopting a "preponderance of evidence" standard (as opposed to the "proof beyond a reasonable doubt" standard used in criminal trials). With this methodology, it concluded that 18 of the allegations of sexual abuse did not stand up, leaving 41 probable offenders, or 1.8 percent of the priests who had served in Chicago in four decades. (Philip Jenkins, Pedophiles and Priests: Anatomy of a Contemporary Crisis [1996], p. 81).

A recent study conducted in the Archdiocese of Philadelphia, Pennsylvania showed a 1.7 percent figure of priestly sexual abuse involving minors

These are priests who are being hounded out and convicted -- what is the conviction rate and % in your or any other Christian group in comparison?

Now note the 1.7 to 1.8%, compare that to the opinion of an expert in pedophilia, Dr. John Bradford, who "estimates its [pedophilia's] prevalence at maybe four percent of the population" (John Cloud, "Pedophilia," Time, April 29, 2002).

If so, the percentage of pedophiles in the ranks of Catholic priests is significantly lower by all accounts than in the general population. This may be due to the psychological screening candidates for the priesthood are subject to prior to ordination-and to the practical fact that priests have less access to children than do typical pedophiles.

In his book Pedophiles and Priests, Prof. Philip Jenkins—a Protestant and an expert in the subject of pedophilia—stated, "The most-quoted survey of sexual problems among Protestant clergy states that some ten percent are involved in sexual misconduct of some kind, and that 'about two or three percent' are pedophiles, a rate equal or higher than that suggested for Catholic priests. These figures should be viewed skeptically; the methodology on which they are based is not clear, and they seem to rely disproportionately on individuals already in therapy. However, it is striking to find such a relatively high number suggested for both celibate and non-celibate clergy" (pp. 50-51).

Note that -- that 'about two or three percent' are pedophiles, a rate equal or higher than that suggested for Catholic priests.

cases of Catholic clerical abuse attract more attention than non-Catholic cases because the Church expects higher standards of its clergy and members than do other bodies. Because the Church keeps a detailed dossier on members of its clergy, giving prosecutors more extensive evidence to work with. Because the media seeks any opportunity to attack Christianity

Remember, the VAST majority of priests and bishops (98% in the US alone) are still the honest, faithful servants of Christ and ministers to his people that they always have been.

[metmom]

Don’t know any who smoke or drink.

The one caught in adultery was very promptly removed from the ministry.

Don’t know of any who are homosexual.

What “proof”? That would reveal personal information about me. Nope. Not falling for the *provide proof* line.

[metmom]

Historically, God has always been harder on those specially called out to be representatives of His. They’re representing GOD, for crying out loud, to a lost and dying world who need to see what a difference Christ can make in someone’s life.

A life of debauchery and sin totally nullifies the verbal testimony of the man claiming it. Someone like that is rightly called a hypocrite. And that is what those priests and those who protect them are.

They preach one thing and practice another.

The RCC’s outspoken stand against abortion and homosexuality is admirable and ought to be done. And I’ll be the first to admit that Protestant denominations need to speak out more.

However, what good is it for the Catholic church to speak out against those evils when they allow the homosexuality in their midst and do nothing to protect the children from harm by their own homosexual clergy AFTER they’re born?

[metmom]

Ouch.

There ought to be a hot spot in hell for men like him, and the congregation is equally culpable.

[metmom]

Ouch.

There ought to be a hot spot in hell for men like him, and the congregation is equally culpable.

It boggles the mind that the congregation is willing to accept sacraments from a man like that. Talk about affirming what he was doing.

I feel sick.

[metmom]

Wait. I thought you were turning to God - that's the way you deal w/the problem. Is there a new law now that you should go around polling others outside the CC - sorta of 'take the heat' off the CC? Is that #2 after you are finished with #1 turning to God?

pwnd......

[TSgt]

The job of the flock is to follow The Good shepherd, Christ, to focus on Him, not on the sub-shepherds who have not one level of the ability of The Shepherd.

This is 180 degrees out of phase with how the Catholic religion operates. One has to confess their sins to a sub-shepherd, receive sacraments from a sub-shepherd, pray to sub-shepherds, etc..

Jesus made it so simple, He is the way the truth and the life. No man comes to the Father but by Him.

[metmom]

Firstly, let me repeat -- we, the Church want those 1.8% of convicted ex-priests to stay in prison and rot. They have abused their authority and worse, abused their vocation. They will burn in the hottest fires of hell as they have not been the shepherds to their flock --

What a joke.

I don't see or hear any hue and cry coming from either the clergy or laity to deal with this except for a few rare voices who are paying a steep personal cost to confront the issue.

Someone in a church should NOT be paying any kind of personal cost for speaking out against it. People should be rallying around them.

What kind of church do you have there?

Why are they still priests?

Why are they still allowed to administer sacraments?

Are those sacraments still valid?

Why do parishioners willingly accept sacraments from someone who they KNOW is such an instrument of Satan?

You will never convince anyone that the church is serious about this issue until drastic action is taken BY the church. If the church was serious about it, they'd have done something about it.

[metmom]

In the Church we stay true to and obey the Word of God. It's good you brought up the point of obedience. That is very key.

Obedience is for the clergy, too. Not just the laity.

the Catholic church has a double standard of behavior. One for the protected elite class of priests and bishops, and one for the underlings, the unwashed who they are dangling over the fires of hell with their constant threats of damnation if they don't tow the line.

That's called *hypocrisy*.

[metmom]

What’s your church? Let’s compare, legitimately. If your church is so great, compared to Catholics, what is it? Let’s find out if your beliefs are so much better that nobody sins in your church.

You've been warned before not to go there. The mods told you that asking for church affiliation is trolling.

The *everybody is doing it* and *it's worse over there* is a pretty poor excuse for it happening in the Catholic church.

There is no excuse for the inaction we see on the part of the Catholic church in regard to this issue.

I don't care if the rest of the world is doing it, lower percentages don't make it right.

This is the problem with a works based religion. It allows for too much judgment. Well, we're not as bad as the next guy, so I'm safe. Whew.

Wrong. Sin is sin and everyone is accountable and answerable for their own. It doesn't matter what the next guy is doing. It matters what they're doing.

[topcat54]

TC, can you clarify what you mean by this? I think the Jews are following the faith of their father Abraham, just that they have not acknowledged the Messiah.

Here’s a shocking statement for most modern western Christians: Abraham was Trinitarian. Abraham trusted in Jesus Christ, the divine second person, for his salvation. We have Christ’s own testimony to that effect:

56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad."
57 Then the Jews said to Him, "You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?"
58 Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM." (John 8)

Abraham saw Christ and rejoiced. Abraham wasn’t some bland monotheist who believed in some unnamed (possibly human-ony) messiah; he believed in Jesus Christ, the second person of the holy Trinity, the God-man who entered history to save His people from their sins. The faith of Abraham was a Trinitarian faith.

This is why Paul tells us in Galatians 3 that those who believe in Christ are the true children of Abraham.

And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. (Gal. 3:29)

It’s a sad thing to say, but based on the NT testimony, unbelieving Jews are not practicing the faith of Abraham.

[topcat54]

Personally, anyone can eat, drink whatever - it's makes no difference to me and never has nor have I found it to be a stumbling block in my walk.

We went through all that to get to this! That’s basically my view. The brethren are free to disagree on matters adiaphora as long as we don’t attempt to bind the conscience of others.

[Quix]

“As a thief in the night”

indicates to me . . .

totally unexpected—at least to non-Believers.

I would expect that after the fact—probably immediately after the fact—all hell will break loose in more than figurative terms.

[metmom]

A good short read, even if a little dry. You might learn something about the validity of statistics from this.

How to Lie with Statistics

[daniel1212]

I have not been following this thread, but came across a good page that may be interesting, neither pro nor con: The Early Church Fathers, on Premillennialism and Eschatology: http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=00CAjU

[Cronos]

RM — here’s a case of Metmom calling a fellow FReeper a liar.

[Cronos]

Here's a case of how to show the truth

the Church wants those 0.53-1.8% of convicted ex-priests to stay in prison and rot. They have abused their authority and worse, abused their vocation. They will burn in the hottest fires of hell as they have not been the shepherds to their flock --

secondly, give me % terms and give me a comparison to your group or any other Christian group. What is the conviction rate of pastors in your group who have molested children?

The Associated Press reported that 250 out of 47,000 priests had been dismissed or had resigned by the time the bishops met last June, though it is not clear that all of the dismissals and resignations were due to abuse. Even if all 250 priests were abusers, it would still amount to about one-half of one percent (0.53 percent) of the 47,000 priests currently serving in America, a proportion far smaller than in most media accounts. Since some of the allegations involved priests who are now dead, the proportion of offenders within today's priesthood is significantly smaller than one-half of one percent. Unquestionably those who were convicted are dismissed and no matter that psychological "experts" had assured bishops in the 60s and 70sthat a month's stay at a treatment facility would "cure" this

What are the percentage conviction and dismissal rate of molesters in YOUR group or any other Christian group, I ask? Compare these and tell me 0.5% or more?

A 1992 study conducted in the Archdiocese of Chicago is the largest such study done to date. It examined the personnel files of all priests serving in the diocese. It found that out of the 2,252 priests who had served from 1951 to 1991, allegations of sexual abuse had been made against 59 of them, or 2.6 percent.

The study adopted a policy of favoring the accuser in cases of doubt, accepting hearsay testimony (which would not be allowed in court), and adopting a "preponderance of evidence" standard (as opposed to the "proof beyond a reasonable doubt" standard used in criminal trials). With this methodology, it concluded that 18 of the allegations of sexual abuse did not stand up, leaving 41 probable offenders, or 1.8 percent of the priests who had served in Chicago in four decades. (Philip Jenkins, Pedophiles and Priests: Anatomy of a Contemporary Crisis [1996], p. 81).

A recent study conducted in the Archdiocese of Philadelphia, Pennsylvania showed a 1.7 percent figure of priestly sexual abuse involving minors

These are priests who are being hounded out and convicted -- what is the conviction rate and % in your or any other Christian group in comparison?

Now note the 1.7 to 1.8%, compare that to the opinion of an expert in pedophilia, Dr. John Bradford, who "estimates its [pedophilia's] prevalence at maybe four percent of the population" (John Cloud, "Pedophilia," Time, April 29, 2002).

If so, the percentage of pedophiles in the ranks of Catholic priests is significantly lower by all accounts than in the general population. This may be due to the psychological screening candidates for the priesthood are subject to prior to ordination-and to the practical fact that priests have less access to children than do typical pedophiles.

In his book Pedophiles and Priests, Prof. Philip Jenkins—a Protestant and an expert in the subject of pedophilia—stated, "The most-quoted survey of sexual problems among Protestant clergy states that some ten percent are involved in sexual misconduct of some kind, and that 'about two or three percent' are pedophiles, a rate equal or higher than that suggested for Catholic priests. These figures should be viewed skeptically; the methodology on which they are based is not clear, and they seem to rely disproportionately on individuals already in therapy. However, it is striking to find such a relatively high number suggested for both celibate and non-celibate clergy" (pp. 50-51).

Note that -- that 'about two or three percent' are pedophiles, a rate equal or higher than that suggested for Catholic priests.

cases of Catholic clerical abuse attract more attention than non-Catholic cases because the Church expects higher standards of its clergy and members than do other bodies. Because the Church keeps a detailed dossier on members of its clergy, giving prosecutors more extensive evidence to work with. Because the media seeks any opportunity to attack Christianity

Remember, the VAST majority of priests and bishops (98% in the US alone) are still the honest, faithful servants of Christ and ministers to his people that they always have been.
you might learn something from this

[Cronos]

So, what is the percentage of conviction rate of pastors in your group who have molested children?