Latter-day Saints aren't Christians?

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[Paragon Defender]

Latter-day Saints aren't Christians?

 

 

 

Criticism

Critics claim that members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints are not "Christian."

A related claim is that the Church has only recently begun to portray itself as "Christian" in order to gain adherents.

See also: Source(s) of the criticism

 

 

Response

It is evident from what has been said, that the Mormons, as such, can have no part or lot in the religion of Jesus Christ—and we do not see how any one can be their friend, (as Mormons,) without being an enemy to God.

—James M’Chesney, An Antidote To Mormonism, revised by G. J. Bennet (New York, NY: Burnett & Pollard, 1838), 49. off-site Full title

LDS Not Excluded by Belief or Practice

Main article: "Mormons" worship a "different Jesus"?

When critics make the claim that LDS are not Christian, they typically will present a laundry list of doctrines and practices that they believe put LDS outside the category of "Christian." At its base, this claim is an excellent example of the No true Scotsman fallacy.

There are two problems with such lists. The first, and most important, is that the original and enduring meaning of "Christian" has been a person or group whose beliefs or practices are founded on the life and/or teachings of Christ. That is, all groups whose religion is founded on Jesus of Nazareth have been classified as Christian since the term was first coined in the first century, regardless of specific beliefs and practices. "Christian" has always included such wildly diverse groups as the Ebionites, the Marcionites, and the Christian Gnostics of ancient times, along with Unitarians and Coptic Christians in modern times. Critics may believe that LDS are "false Christians" or "heretical Christians" or "hell-bound Christians," seeing that such terms are subjective and without standard definitions, but neither belief nor practice can exclude any group from the family of Christian religions and denominations if that group claims to be founded on the life or teachings of the first-century Jesus of Nazareth.

The second problem with the critics' list is that their list of objectionable beliefs and practices used to exclude LDS from the Christian family are lists of beliefs and practices that are found in other groups that are clearly classified as Christian. The claimed bases for the charge that the LDS are not Christians include:

• LDS do not accept creedal Trinitarianism as set out by the Nicene creed. This means that they conceive of Jesus and Satan as being spiritual ' siblings' in terms of their ultimate origin, if not their nature or religious status.
• Because of different understandings about God, some Christian critics accuse the LDS of worshipping a different Jesus
• LDS have doctrines which differ from many forms of "traditional" Christianity:
  • premortal existence
  • vicarious work for the dead
  • eternal marriage and families
  • three degrees of glory
  • Deification of man {theosis}
• LDS use additional scripture with the Bible
• LDS do not accept creatio ex nihilo
• LDS do not accept the traditional view of original sin
• LDS heed the teachings of Joseph Smith and other modern prophets
• LDS reject such doctrines as predestination to salvation or damnation

Unfortunately for the critic, all of these doctrinal differences have been held not just by the LDS, but by other Christians as well, including the early Christians of the first and second centuries.^[1] These Christians:

• were not Trinitarians, since the creeds were not yet formulated
• did not teach creatio ex nihilo
• did not consider "the Bible" to be the sole authoritative scripture, since it was not compiled until centuries later
• considered some writings to be authoritative which many modern Christians now reject
• taught theosis, or human deification through Christ
• followed living prophets (the apostles)

One might debate whether these Christians were correct or complete in their beliefs, but can the critics seriously exclude them from the family of Christians?^[2]

The critics essentially create a definition of "Christian" that includes their brand of Christianity, and excludes others with whom they disagree.

LDS Classified as Christian

The assertion that Latter-day Saints are not Christian has at its base the idea that the Latter-day Saints don't meet the definition of the word "Christian." But the meanings of words are determined by usage and acceptance. If a definition is widespread (used by many people), persistent (used over a long period of time), and established (accepted by individuals and organizations that are respected and assumed to be knowledgeable) then we can confidently state that the definition is correct and accurate.

The attempt to define "Christian" in such a way as to exclude Latter-day Saints (and many other groups that are generally considered to be some kind of Christian denomination or religion) is really the recent work of a minority group within Protestantism. The nearly-universal and nearly-2000-year-old usage of the word "Christian" has clearly included unorthodox groups that disagree, sometimes sharply, with the teachings and practices of those who claim to be able to define Latter-day Saints out of the Christian fold.

The following are some organizations and resources that classify The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as Christian. The range of sources from encyclopedias to media outlets to government organizations supports the fact that the definition of "Christian" includes Latter-day Saints.

• Yahoo Directory: "Christian Denominations and Sects" off-site

• adherents.com: "Largest Branches of Christianity in the U.S." off-site

• beliefnet: "Faiths and Practices" index off-site

• MSN Encarta encyclopedia: "Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" off-site

• RSN (Religion New Service): Religion Backgrounders off-site

• PBS (Public Broadcasting Service): "The Church: A Brief History" off-site

• LaborLawTalk dictionary off-site

• Encyclopedia Britannia Online off-site

• BBC (British Broadcasting Corporation) off-site

• World Council of Churches (WCC): Churches off-site

• National Council of Churches (NCC): National Council of Churches’ 2005 "Yearbook of American & Canadian Churches." off-site

• United States Department of State: International Religious Freedom Report 2004 (Tonga) off-site

Saints claim to be Christian only recently?

This claim is absurd. The critics depend on their audience not knowing much about LDS history for this claim. Enemies and members of the Church have long known that Church members consider themselves "Christian" (italics added in all cases):

1830s

1830

“They call themselves the church of Christ, and the only church of Christ. All professing Christians who do not adhere to their system, they consider as formalists; ‘having the form of Godliness, but denying the power’”.^[3]

1831

“Old Joe . . . and several others . . . admitted [that the new faith] was an improvement in Christianity”.^[4]

1832

The Mormonites “say the Millennium is soon to commence and that Christ is to come personally and take up His residence with them. . . . In its general principles this sect entirely coincide with others which have from time to time sprung up in Christendom”. ^[5]

1833

There is “a civil war between the Mormonites and their brother Christians”. ^[6]

1834

"Brother Joseph . . . went on to show the brethren how wicked and unchristianlike such conduct [among them] appeared before the eyes of truth and justice”.^[7]

April 1834

The only name given under heaven, whereby man can be saved, is Jesus Christ. Men in days of old heard the glad tidings, that the Son of Man would come in the fulness of his own time, to make intercession for the children of men, and suffer, the just, for the unjust, and rise from the dead, that the bands of the temporal death might be broken, that the resurrection might pass upon all men, that they might stand in the presence of God to be judged according to their works.—These glad tidings were communicated from heaven to earth, by the ministering of holy angels and by the voice of the living God. Thousands have looked forward with an eye of faith, and a confidence unshaken in the promises of God, to the time when the great and last sacrifice should be made for fallen man. Many have rejoiced to see the day of the Son of Man, have seen it, and were glad; and have fallen asleep after obtaining the promise, that they should see God in the flesh and should reign with him on the earth a thousand years....The news that the gospel brought in days of old, was, that Jesus Christ would come into the world; that he would suffer according to the flesh; that he would rise from the dead, and thereby redeem his people from the power of the grave.^[8]

1835

“the doctrine promulgated by the ‘latter day Christians’ in the newly discovered Bible”.^[9]

1836

“This morning a minister from Conne[c]ticut by the name of John W. Olived called at my house . . . . [He] asked me wherein we differ from other Christian denomination[s]”.^[10]

1836

“they have the appearance of being devout Christians. . . . They call themselves ‘Latter-day Saints,’ and profess to be the only true church, to have the only gospel order, consisting of apostles, elders, bishops, etc., etc., which several orders of the Christian hierarchy have been distinctly brought to light in the Book of Mormon”.^[11]

1837

“a large society of Christians who style themselves ‘Latter-day Saints’ or Mormons.” (Painesville Republican, vol. 1, no. 31, 15 June 1837).

1838

"The fundamental principles of our religion are the testimony of the Apostles and Prophets, concerning Jesus Christ, that He died, was buried, and rose again the third day, and ascended into heaven; and all other things which pertain to our religion are only appendages to it".^[12]

1839

"This sect took its rise, A. D. 1830, in the county of Ontario, and State of New York. In April of that year, the society was organized as a Christian Church".^[13]

1839

The Mormons “were singing a hymn as other good Christians are wont to do . . . . [One of them offered] a very good Christian prayer . . . . [which petitioned that the Mormons might have] Christian fortitude.” (Peoria Register and North-Western Gazetteer, vol. 3, no. 17, 27 July 1839)

1839: Benjamin Dobson to the editor, June 16, 1839, “The Mormons,” Peoria Register and North-Western Gazetteer (Peoria, Illinois) 3, no. 13 (27 July 1839). off-site

1840s

1840

“We want no religion but pure Christianity”.^[14]

1840

The heaven-born doctrines of christianity are so opposite to the vain, grovelling, and selfish sentiments of corrupt human nature, and the self-denying practices of genuine believers are so repugnant to the feelings of those whose nature is “earthly, sensual, and devilish,” that it is utterly unreasonable to suppose that anything like amity, concord or peace, can possibly exist between the church and the world. [John Taylor, Calumny Refuted and the Truth Defended (Liverpool: J. Tompkins, 1840), 1–12 off-site Full title]

1840

The citizens of Nauvoo are “a people, professing to be Christians.” (Quincy Whig, vol. 3, no. 13, 25 July 1840).

1840

The Mormons retain “many truths which are held in common by different denominations of Christians.” (The Alton Telegraph, vol. 5, no. 46, 14 November 1840).

1840

"We want no religion but pure Christianity." [Parley P. Pratt, Plain Facts (Manchester: W. R. Thomas, 1840), 5. off-site Full title]

1840

"If every friend to the cause of apostolic christianity, would subscribe and pay in advance for the above mentioned books [Book of Mormon, hymn books]...." [Anon., "Books!!!," Times and Seasons 1 no. 9 (July 1840), 139–40. off-site GospeLink (requires subscrip.) off-site

1841

“I understood from [the Mormons] as follows, . . . that they did not discard the Bible as used by other Christian sects”.^[15]]

1841

"why it is, that so many professing Christianity, and so many professing to reverence the sacred principles of our Constitution (which gives free religious toleration to all), have slandered, and persecuted this sect of Christians."^[16]

1841

"The object of our visit to your city is not to subvert any moral or truly Christian principle, or to promulgate any doctrine other than that which was advocated by Patriarchs, Prophets, Christ and the Apostles; which doctrine or gospel, we believe is the same invariable plan of salvation that it ever was, and that it ought to be taught, administered and obeyed in the present age, precisely as it was in the primitive or golden period of Christianity." [E. Snow and Benjamin Winchester, "An Address to the Citizens of Salem (Mass.) And Vicinity," Times and Seasons 2 no. 24 (1 October 1841), 574-76. off-site GospeLink (requires subscrip.) off-site]

1841

"Many of them have given up home and friends in obedience to what they consider the call of Christ, their Master.... The Mormons not only claim to be Christians, but the only Christians." [“The Mormons,” Auburn Journal and Advertiser (22 December 1841). off-site]

1842

“the great Christian city of Nauvoo”.^[17]

1842

[Mormons teach that] "no man can be a Christian, or be admitted into the kingdom of God, unless he is baptized by immersion by an authorized person." [R.T.M., “The Mormons,” Religious Monitor and Evangelical Repository (18January 1842): 345–46. off-site]

1842

Hyrum Smith is "one of the most pious and devout christians in the world." (New York Herald (19 February 1842); cited in Veritas, "The Mormon Prophets," Millennial Star 3 (May 1842): 8.)

1842

Mormons “are Christians in the fullest sense of the term, believing in the Old and New Testaments.” (The New York Herald, vol. 7, no. 419, 16 May 1842).

1842

Mormons are described as – “A Christian sect in Illinois.” (Alton Telegraph and Democratic Review, vol. 7, no. 25, 18 June 1842; emphasis in original).

1842

"All these letters and documents [about the Mormons] disclose a most extraordinary movement in human affairs. What they mean we can hardly tell, but is it not time for some great religious revolution, as radical as Luther's, to take place in the Christian world?...Unlike all other Christian sects, they adopt at once all the modern improvements of society, in art and literature; and from their singular religious faith give the highest enthusiasm to the movement at large. There is nothing odd, or singular, or absurd about them.” ("Wonderful Progress of Joe Smith, the Modern Mahomet.—Spread of the Mormon Faith, and a New Religious Revolution at Hand," N.Y. Herald (17 June 1842); emphasis added).^[18]

1842

"Mr. Whitney then asked if we acknowledged any to be Christians except those who embraced our doctrines and joined our church." (Orson Hyde letter, Times and Seasons, vol. 3, no. 18, 15 July 1842, 849).

1842

A Baptist complained that a Church preacher "declined making an honest confession of those peculiarities which separate them as widely from the Baptists, as from every other denomination of the christian church." ^[19]

1842

Wrote the Daily Sun of Cincinnati:

Whatever this new doctrine may be, it is extremely pleasing to the world, and death to the constituted church creeds of every name but that of Mormon. It is destined to spread, for every man that takes it upon him to speak in its favor, is fully competent to make out his case. One is very much surprised to see with what facility they prove their doctrine from the holy scriptures. Mr. Adams remarked, that he did not care whether a man believed the Book of Mormon or not, so that he came forward with a broken heart, believing on the Lord Jesus Christ and in baptism for the remission of sins—let him come forth, and if God did not reveal to him the truths of the Book of Mormon, he need not believe it. [Anon., "Mormonism [Reprinted from the Daily Sun, Cincinnati]," Times and Seasons 4 no. 2 (1 December 1842), 28–29. off-site GospeLink (requires subscrip.) off-site

1842

"The Mormons were Christians in belief, and looked for the second Advent of Christ—when he shall come, surrounded by the angels of Heaven to dwell in person upon the earth....We confess that Mr. Winchester has changed our opinion of the sect; for we held them in contempt if not in abhorrence, from the representations we had read of them, whereas, if what Mr. Winchester states be true (and we have no reason to doubt him,) we can recognize them as professing Christians, tinged with peculiarities on particular points." [Anon., "Mormons, or Latter Day Saints," Times and Seasons 4 no. 2 (1 December 1842), 27–28. off-site GospeLink (requires subscrip.) Reprinted from the Baltimore Clipper. off-site]

1843

"So far we are agreed with other Christian denominations. They all preach faith and repentance. The gospel requires baptism by immersion for the remission of sins, which is the meaning of the word in the original language—namely, to bury or immerse".^[20]

1843

Joseph Smith, in a public discourse, compared the Mormons to other denominations of Christians. (New York Spectator, vol. 46, no. 46, 23 August 1843).

1844

The Mormons are “calling themselves Christians . . . . Christians, as they claim to be.” (The Warsaw Signal, NS no. 4, no. 121, 6 March 1844).

1844

“The [Saturday] Courier should for the sake of truth and consistency, strike its flag of neutrality in RELIGION, while it wages a war of extermination against the Mormons; the only sect in Christendom, who in this nineteenth century can exhibit the irresistible evidence of martyrdom, in support of its cause”.^[21]

1844

"On Sunday I was invited to give, in a public discourse, the points of difference between faith of the Latter-day Saints and other professors of [p.417] the Christian religion."^[22]

1850s

1853

Now, we ARE believers in the Bible, and in consequence of our unshaken faith in its precepts, doctrine, and prophecy, may be, attributed "the strangeness of our course," and the unwarrantable conduct of many towards this people. Come, my brother Presbyterian; come, my brother professors of every persuasion of long standing and popular distinction in the world, who are dubbed with the word "ORTHODOX;" come, we are all good Christians; I find no fault with you—why should you find fault with me?^[23]

1854

“Mormonites . . . . call themselves Christians, it is true” (The Daily Globe, vol. 6, no. 261, 5 October 1854).

1857

"Their religious teachers of Mormonism, preach to them, as they call it, "Christianity in its purity." (S[olomon] N. Carvalho, Incidents of Travel and Adventure in the Far West; with Col. Fremont's Last Expedition, chapter 22. off-site

1859

We, as Christians, are divided and subdivided into many systems varying in doctrinal points. This one says, "I am right;" and that one says, "I am right;" another rises up and varies, more or less, from the doctrines of the Church he has left, and says he is right.^[24]

1860s

1861

"…who is there that was not startled when he heard that a sect, affecting to be Christian beyond all other sects, which had sprung up in broad day from amidst the civilization of the United States…"^[25]

1863

Should you ask why we differ from other Christians...Are all this people, in the Scriptural sense, Christians? They should be. Do they all serve God with an undivided heart? They should. Many of them do, seeking daily to do his will.^[26]

1864

The Latter-day Saints differ from their Christian brethren.^[27]

1866

Now, we as Christians desire to be saved in the kingdom of God.^[28]

1866

President B. Young preached a very interesting and instructive discourse, in which he showed that professing Christians believe all that the Jews believe, which appertains to life and salvation, and have accepted principles in advance of the Jews, including faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; and that the Latter-day Saints receive all believed in by other professing Christians, appertaining to life and salvation, accepting, as a part of their religious faith, principles in advance of them which are taught in the Scriptures. He touched upon the history of the Jewish people, showing the penalties which they had incurred by disobedience to the commandments of God, and pointing to the promises made to the patriarchal fathers concerning them. And deduced that if the condition of professing Christians is to-day better than that of the Jews, for believing more of the revelations of God, so the condition of the Saints is preferable to that of the other inhabitants of Christendom, in accepting all the revelations which the Lord has been pleased to give. ^[29]

1866

"On one occasion one of the native brethren who had been persecuted, claimed his rights as a Swiss citizen, and the question was brought up in the Swiss Congress, Are the 'Mormons' Christians? After some discussion, the conclusion was arrived at that they were, and must accordingly be protected."^[30]

1870s

1870

Have you embraced truth, Latter-day Saints? Have you anything different from other Christians?^[31]

1871

If you should have visits here from those professing to be Christians, and they intimate a desire to preach to you, by all means invite them to do so. Accord to every reputable person who may visit you, and who may wish to occupy the stands of your meeting houses to preach to you, the privilege of doing so, no matter whether he be a Catholic, Presbyterian, Congregationalist, Baptist, Free-will Baptist, Methodist, or whatever he may be; and if he wishes to speak to your children let him do so. Of course you have the power to correct whatever false teachings or impressions, if any, your children may hear or receive. I say to parents, place your children, as far as you [p.196] have an opportunity to do so, in a position or situation to learn everything in the world that is worth learning. You will probably have what is called a Christian Church here; they will not admit that we are Christians, but they cannot think us further from the plan of salvation as revealed from heaven than we know them to be, so we are even on that ground, as far as it goes.^[32]

We are preaching to the people far and near; our Elders are traveling through the earth; strangers are coming here, and we are declaring to them that the Gospel of the Son of God is true. Whether they believe or not, it is no matter. That book (the Bible)contains the words of the Almighty…. I know of the bright promises which he gave to his disciples anciently. I live in the possession of them, and glory in them and in the cross of Christ, and in the beauty and holiness that he has revealed for the salvation and exaltation of the children of men. I do wish we would live to them, and may the Lord help us. ^[33]

1872

We, as Christians, believe in God, in Christ and in his atonement, in repentance and obedience, and in receiving the Spirit.^[34]

"we take the liberty to believe the Bible, which our fellow Christians, generally throughout the world, profess to believe in…”^[35]

“We are looking for him [i.e. Second coming of Christ]. The Christians of all denominations expect that he will appear in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. The Latter-day Saints expect this in common with all other Christians.”^[36]

1876

These are only a few reflections, when we take into consideration our Christian religion.^[37]

Brother Cannon speaks of Christians. We are Christians professedly, according to our religion.^[38]

“How shall we, as Christians, reconcile these words of our Savior with the reception everywhere given by the world to Messrs. Moody and Sankey? They are, professedly, Christian ministers, yet they are largely entertained by the world, extolled by the world, and apparently loved by the world….”^[39]

“But Joseph Smith reiterates the Savior’s promises. He has no fear of being proved a false teacher. He professes to be a Christian minister called and sent of God….”^[40]

“Immediate revelation was the life of primitive Christianity, and when that ceased to be given to men, Christianity waxed feeble, waned and died. With the restored Gospel came immediate revelation, and Christianity was born again upon the earth.”^[41]

1880s

1881

We are a Christian community; we believe in God and in Jesus Christ...^[42]

1890s

1892

"What a singular sort of ‘Christian community’ that must be that will not tolerate an unorthodox Christian society in its midst!”^[43]

“The insinuation in this [written attack on the LDS by a Protestant minister in SLC] is to the effect that a ‘Mormon’ is not a Christian, and the ‘Mormon’ religion is not a Christian religion, and further that the Supreme Court of the United States has virtually so decided…. But if a ‘Mormon’ is not a Christian then there are no Christians in America…. A member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is at least as fairly entitled to the appellation of a Christian as a member of the Presbyterian Church”^[44]

“[with reverence to Revelation 1. 12] We accept—as all Christians do—that God inspired the words ‘to see the voice.’”^[45]

1900-1950

1907

If it be true Christianity to accept Jesus Christ in person and his mission as divine; to revere him as the Son of God, the crucified and risen Lord, through whom alone mankind can attain salvation; to accept his teachings as a guide, to adopt as a standard and observe as a law the ethical code he promulgated; to comply with the requirements prescribed by him as essential to membership in his Church, namely, faith, repentance, baptism by immersion for the remission of sins, and the laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost,—if this be Christianity, then are we Christians, and the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is a Christian church.^[46]

1917

[W]e are a Christian people, we believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, and we feel that it is our duty to acknowledge him as our Savior and Redeemer.^[47]

After 1950

1956

We are not Catholic, Protestant, nor Jewish, and yet this disclaimer should not be taken to mean we are not Christian. You who heard the powerful address of President Clark this morning will know that we are Christians, for central to everything we believe and teach is our faith that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God. We are grateful for our Judeo-Christian heritage, for the Holy Bible which we accept without reservation as the word of God, except as to some errors that have crept in through translations.^[48]

1997

Jacob Neusner, one of the great Judaism scholars of the twentieth century: "Christianity encompasses a remarkably diverse set of religious systems that have some qualities in common—belief in Jesus Christ—but also differ deeply, especially about matters on which they seem at first glance to concur. For example, who, exactly was, and is, Jesus Christ? No one imagines that by describing a single common denominator Christianity tells us about one unitary religion. Catholic, Protestant, and Orthodox, Methodist, Mormon, and Lutheran—each is comprised by clearly delineated groups of Christians, all of them with their respective systems of belief and behaviour...as the world knows Christianities, but no single Christianity, so the world has known, and today recognizes, diverse Judaisms, no single Judaism."^[49]

2006

Bart Ehrman, a leading expert on the text of the New Testament: "...just as Christianity today is incredibly diverse (compare the Roman Catholics with the Mormons with the Pentecostals with the Seventh Day Adventists with the Eastern Orthodox… and so on!), it was even more diverse in the early centuries..." ("A Few Questions for Bart Ehrman," Oxford University Press Blog (OUPblog) (9 October 2006). off-site

Clearly, the Church has "claimed" to be Christian for a long time, and even hostile critics realized it. To insist that this is a new, public relations move is false. Neutral observers have also seen the Church as Christian. Only a recent, intolerant fringe of fundamentalist Christianity has tried to exclude the Church from Christianity by self-serving definitions.

Conclusion

Critics use a self-serving and self-referential definition of "Christian" to exclude the LDS. They ignore the fact that many other Christians over the millennia would have disagreed with them on the same points, yet this does not disqualify these other believers from the family of "Christians."

Claims that the Church has only recently been asserting its Christian status are false, as attested by LDS scripture, practice, doctrine, and public statements of its leadership and its early critics.

Ironically, many of those who attack the Church and its members for not being Christians show a distinct lack of the Christian virtues themselves:

There has been no end to opposition. There are misinterpretations and misrepresentations of us and of our history, some of it mean-spirited and certainly contrary to the teachings of Jesus Christ and His gospel. Sometimes clergy, even ministerial organizations, oppose us. They do what we would never do. We do not attack or criticize or oppose others as they do us...Strangest of all, otherwise intelligent people claim we are not Christian. This shows that they know little or nothing about us. It is a true principle that you cannot lift yourself by putting others down.^[50]

Endnotes

1. [note]  For a discussion by a non-LDS, conservative evangelical on points of doctrine upon which modern evangelical Christianity differs with the doctrines taught by the early Christian Fathers, see: David W. Bercot, Will The Real Heretics Please Stand Up: A New Look at Today's Evangelical Church in the Light of Early Christianity, 3rd edition, (Tyler, Texas: Scroll Publishing Company, 1999[1989]), 1. ISBN 0924722002
2. [note]  For a discussion of these issues, see Daniel C. Peterson and Stephen D. Ricks, "Comparing LDS Beliefs with First-Century Christianity, (Provo, Utah: FARMS, no date). off-site
3. [note]  Rev. John Sherer to Absalom Peters, 18 November 1830, published in Dan Vogel (editor), Early Mormon Documents (Salt Lake City, Signature Books, 1996–2003), 5 vols, 4:93.
4. [note]  “Mormon Religion—Clerical Ambition—Western New York—The Mormonites Gone to Ohio,” Morning Courier and New-York Enquirer (New York City, New York) 7, no. 1331 (1 September 1831). off-site
5. [note]  The Farmer’s Herald, vol. 4, no. 49, 6 June 1832 [Johnsbury, Vermont]
6. [note] Liberal Advocate, vol. 3, no. 6, 30 December 1833 [Rochester, New York]
7. [note] Joseph Smith, History of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, 7 volumes, edited by Brigham H. Roberts, (Salt Lake City: Deseret Book, 1957), 2:83. BYU Studies link
8. [note]  "The Gospel," The Evening and The Morning Star 1:81-83 (April 1833) .
9. [note]  Painesville Telegraph, vol. 1, no. 35, 4 September 1835 [Painesville, Ohio]
10. [note] Dean C. Jessee, The Personal Writings of Joseph Smith, revised edition, (Salt Lake City, Utah: Deseret Book, 2002), 144. ISBN 1573457876. off-site
11. [note]  James H. Eells to Joshua Leavitt, 1 April 1836, New York Evangelist (New York) 7, no. 15 (9 April 1836): 59. off-site (letter written on 1 April 1836 by James H. Eells who lived in Elyra, Ohio)
12. [note]  Joseph Smith, Jr., Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, selected by Joseph Fielding Smith, (Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Company, 1976), 121. ISBN 087579243X. off-site
13. [note] Francis G. Bishop, Brief History of the Church of Jesus Christ, of Latter Day Saints (Blum and Son, Salem, Massachusetts 1839), 2.
14. [note]  Parley P. Pratt, Plain Facts (Manchester: W. R. Thomas, 1840), 6. off-site Full title
15. [note]  Upper Mississippian, "Nauvoo Mormon Religion," (15 February 1841) Times and Seasons 2:324.; reprint of an article from the Upper Mississippian
16. [note]  Extract from a Letter in the Juliet Courier, dated from Monmouth, Illinois (June 1841); cited in Joseph Smith, History of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, 7 volumes, edited by Brigham H. Roberts, (Salt Lake City: Deseret Book, 1957), 4:381. BYU Studies link
17. [note]  Chicago Democrat, May 1842; editorial by John Wentworth
18. [note]  Cited by Helen Mar Whitney, Woman's Exponent 10 no. 13 (1 December 1881), 97–99. Available in Jeni Broberg Holzapfel and Richard Neitzel Holzapfel, eds., A Woman's View: Helen Mar Whitney's Reminiscences of Early Church History (Provo: Religious Studies Center, BYU, 1997), 149. ISBN 1570083576. ISBN 978-1570083570. GospeLink (requires subscrip.)
19. [note]  "A Baptist," letter to the editor published in the North Staffordshire Mercury, "Difference Between the Baptists & Latter-day Saints," (1 October 1843) Times and Seasons 3:931-932. (italics added)
20. [note]  Joseph Smith, Jr., Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, selected by Joseph Fielding Smith, (Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Company, 1976), 314. ISBN 087579243X. off-site
21. [note] Philadelphia Sun reprint, "Magna est veritas, et praevalebit’ (Not sure of translationvol=5," Times and Seasons no. 15 (15 August 1844), 621. off-site GospeLink (requires subscrip.)
22. [note]  D.S. Hollister to Joseph Smith, 9 May 1844; cited in Joseph Smith, History of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, 7 volumes, edited by Brigham H. Roberts, (Salt Lake City: Deseret Book, 1957), 6:416–417. BYU Studies link
23. [note] Brigham Young, "Effects and Privileges of the Gospel," (24 July 1853) Journal of Discourses 1:237-237.
24. [note]  Brigham Young, "Government of God," (22 May 1859) Journal of Discourses 7:148.; Brigham Young, "Government of God," Deseret News 9 no. 13 (1 June 1859), 104.
25. [note]  Juley Remy, Journey to Great Salt Lake City (1861), 2:82–83; cited by B. Carmon Hardy (editor), Doing the Works of Abraham: Mormong Polygamy, Its origin, practice and demise, Vol. 9 of Kingdom in the West Series: The Mormons and the American Frontier (series editor Will Bagley), (Norman, Oklahoma: The Arthur H. Clark Company, 2007), 195. ISBN 0870623443. ISBN 978-0870623448..
26. [note] Brigham Young, "Advice To California Emigrants. — The Principles Of The Gospel, etc.," (8 July 1863) Journal of Discourses 10:230-231.
27. [note] Brigham Young, "Difference Of Ideas Entertained Respecting God, etc.," (31 July 1863) Journal of Discourses 10:318-319.
28. [note] Brigham Young, "Remarks by President Brigham Young," (19 August 1866) Journal of Discourses 11:268-268.
29. [note]  Brigham Young, Deseret News Weekly 15/109 (4 March 1866): page?.; cited in Eldon Watson (editor), Brigham Young Addresses (1982), 5:32.
30. [note]  William W. Riter, "Minutes of a General Council; Birmingham,England; January 5, 1866," Millennial Star 28 no. 12 (24 March 1866), 179.
31. [note] Brigham Young, "The Saints Are A Strange People Because They Practise What They Profess," (20 February 1870) Journal of Discourses 13:237-238.
32. [note]  Brigham Young, "Discourse by President Brigham Young," (3 June 1871) Journal of Discourses 14:195-196.; Brigham Young, "Discourse by President Brigham Young," Millennial Star 33 no. 27 (4 July 1871), 418–420.; DNW 20:235.
33. [note]  Brigham Young, "Remarks by President Brigham Young," (27 August 1871) Journal of Discourses 14:227.; Discourse by President Brigham Young, Deseret News 20 no. 31 (6 September 1871), 357–358.
34. [note] Brigham Young, "Riches — Hurry — Fashion — Helping The Poor — Mysteries," (26 May 1872) Journal of Discourses 15:42-42.
35. [note]  John Taylor, "Discourse by Elder John Taylor," (3 March 1872) Journal of Discourses 14:338. Discourse by Elder John Taylor, Deseret News 21 no. 36 (13 March 1872), 65, second column.
36. [note]  Orson Pratt, "Discourse by Elder Orson Pratt," (10 March 10 1872) Journal of Discourses 14:348.; Orson Pratt, "Discourse by Elder Orson Pratt," Deseret News 21 (20 March 1872), 77, fourth column.
37. [note] Brigham Young, "Discourse By President Brigham Young," (15 August 1876) Journal of Discourses 18:217-217.
38. [note] Brigham Young, "Discourse By President Brigham Young," (17 September 1876) Journal of Discourses 18:231-231.
39. [note] Editorial (Elder David McKenzie), "Christianity and Revivalism," Millennial Star 38 no. 10 (6 March 1876), 152.
40. [note] Editorial (Elder David McKenzie), "Gifts of the Holy Ghost," Millennial Star 38 no. 13 (27 March 1876), 200–201.
41. [note] Editorial (Elder David McKenzie), "Evidences of the Truth," Millennial Star 38 no. 14 (3 April 1876), 217.
42. [note] Francis M. Lyman, "General Conference (5 April 1881)," Millennial Star 43 no. 19 (9 May 1881), 292.
43. [note]  Editorial on citizens of Beaver Dam, Virginia removing Mormon Elders by force to another part of the state, Deseret News Weekly 45/13 (17 September 1892): 396.
44. [note]  "Intolerant Discrimination", Deseret News Weekly 45/14 (24 September 1892): 441.
45. [note]  "The Book of Mormon", Deseret News Weekly 45/25 (10 December 1892): 780.
46. [note] First Presidency, "Address to the World," Improvement Era 10 (May 1907), 481–495.
47. [note]  Joseph F. Smith, General Conference address (April 6, 1917)
48. [note] Hugh B. Brown, "Discourse," Improvement Era 10 (December 1956), 949–949.
49. [note]  Jacob Neusner, The Way Of Torah, 6th edition, (Belmont, California: Wadsworth Publishing Company, 1997), 15. ISBN 0534516033.
50. [note]  Boyd K. Packer, "A Defense and a Refuge," Ensign (November 2006), 85–88. off-site

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[RegulatorCountry]

There’s nothing cordial about your reply, Diamond, sad to say. I’ve been a frequent participant on the FR RF. Perhaps you have at some point, too.

Regarding relevancy, maybe you could post the entire Book of Revelation. It’s 100% “relevant.” Or, you could post a long burgundy box with blurbs containing rote, repetitious prayers every single night and four times on Sunday.

Some view FR on the “comments” tab, and therefore see every reply. I actually enjoy seeing responses on all the various forums, particularly the RF. But, endless scrolling through excessively long replies is no way to win people over.

I suggest you post an excerpt with a link in the future, lest someone get the false impression that you’re less than polite and rather self-important.

[greyfoxx39]

The “triune” god is non-scriptural. In fact it’s pagan belief put to the church by a pagan emperor. Read Eusibius. He clearly says that at the nicene counsil (He was there) the Emperor dismissed the counsil and then after most had left he got together with certain selected counsil members and came up the triune part of the creed.

Gee, there is LOTS of un-sourced information there.

Please provide links..to sources that are NOT LDS. Thanks.

[reaganaut]

I bookmarked this on the other thread, it is one of the best analysis I have seen on the topic.

[reaganaut]

I bookmarked this on the other thread, it is one of the best analysis I have seen on the topic.

[greyfoxx39]

Some view FR on the “comments” tab, and therefore see every reply. I actually enjoy seeing responses on all the various forums, particularly the RF. But, endless scrolling through excessively long replies is no way to win people over.

Hint: Set your "brevity" setting to "headers" instead of "text". It is very common to see long posts on the Religion Forum. Some even include numerous graphics along with the text. You never know whose eye will be caught by a random comment within a long post and have their life changed for eternity.

Thanks for posting that, Diamond.

[MHGinTN]

Thank you so much for reposting that lengthy, accurate, well designed bank of data.

As to the immediate spittle cast your way for posting this material, you will recall how Peter lept to tell Jesus what He ought not do, and how Jesus responded. Again, thank you so much for the work in posting that.

And Elsie, use your decoder ring, I'm sending a few buckets of holy electrons so you don't run out:

Praise God from Whom all blessings flow

Praise Him all creatures here below,

Praise Him above, ye Heavenly hosts,

Praise Father, Son, and Holy Ghost

Aaaaah men

[MHGinTN]

Thank you so much for reposting that lengthy, accurate, well designed bank of data.

As to the immediate spittle cast your way for posting this material, you will recall how Peter lept to tell Jesus what He ought not do, and how Jesus responded. Again, thank you so much for the work in posting that.

And Elsie, use your decoder ring, I'm sending a few buckets of holy electrons so you don't run out:

Praise God from Whom all blessings flow

Praise Him all creatures here below,

Praise Him above, ye Heavenly hosts,

Praise Father, Son, and Holy Ghost

Aaaaah men

[RegulatorCountry]

There is a difference between a detailed reply and the entire phone book, greyfoxx39. It’s actually a thread disruption tactic in some circles, known as a “data dump.” Why is an effective disruption tactic, among those who seek to do so? Because people tune out. It’s a counterproductive behavior.

[one Lord one faith one baptism]

Luther’s original intent was to reform and not start a new church. I really believe if both Luther and the then Pope had the ability to look out in the hundreds of years since 1517, cooler heads would have prevailed and unity could have been maintained. Unfortunately, there is a gene in man that rebels against authority, so in the matters of Faith, once you deny there is a Divinely founded and protected Church, you in effect set yourself up to judge the Church and you become your own mini pope. What effect has this had? LDS, JW, SDA, CS, and every sort of sect. After all, if Luther, Calvin and Henry VIII can set up their own church, so can you, so can i, so can Joseph Smith. Jesus said there is one Church, the NT teaches the will of God is that Christians be one in belief and worship ( John 17, 1 Corinthians ) You say you believe in small (c) catholic church. what does that mean? If you won’t fellowship with me or worship with me, you either don’t believe Catholics are Christian or you believe in at least two churches. If you hold doctrines unknown until the 16th century, in what sense can you say you hold to the catholic (c) faith?
one example really gets to the heart of the matter, st ignatius wrote around 100ad ( st ignatius was personally taught the Faith by St John and was chosen to be the Bishop of Antioch because of his faithfulness to Christ )that the Gnostics abstained from the Eucharist since they did not believe it was the Body of Christ. There are many today who will not take the Eucharist because they deny it is the Body of Christ, yet they claim to believe in the one holy catholic apostolic church! i believe st ignatius learned the faith from st john and he laid hands on other men and so on and so on until the present day. There is a reason Jesus prayed that we all be one in John 17, so the world ( unbelievers ) may believe in Jesus. Why can’t we all see this whole concept of “denominations” and divisions are used by the cults and muslims against the Church?
note for the moderator, when i refer to “you” i am not referring to reaganaut, but it’s meant in a general way.

[one Lord one faith one baptism]

care to share an example of a reformation doctrine that is supported by the Bible, the Church Fathers and opposed by the Catholic Church? Thanks.

[greyfoxx39]

It’s actually a thread disruption tactic in some circles

So is dragging the thread off topic by making another FReeper..or his post.. the focus. ;0)

[Kevmo]

I see a lot of Mormon articles posted here at FR. Why? I don’t understand. Who cares.
***It’s because PD posted this thread under caucus protection, in which the title was considered to be inflammatory by JimRob and it was a violation of caucus rules. So JimRob moved it to breaking news, and the mormons had to deal with their heresy out in the open.

Joseph Smith: An Apostle of Jesus Christ
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/2650662/posts

Now the FR mormon strategy seems to be throw lots&lotsa words around, knowing that very few Freepers have the time to read it all.

[Cisco Nix]

"it’s because PD.............."

Thank you for letting me know. I tried to find out earlier and what I received was not “Christian Hospitality”. Perhaps I could have chosen the words of my query more tactfully but I didn't deserve what I was subject to. Now I know, thank you. It gives me a whole new perspective on this Mormon thing and other things as well.

[Colofornian]

...IT is the Body of Christ on earth and pillar of truth. this Church was to preach the Gospel throughout the ages, and the Holy Spirit was to guide IT into all truth and add to it all that will be saved. Jesus also clearly said the gates of hell will not prevail against IT, i.e. IT is not some mere human institution like the moose club, but a Divine Institution, which will be protected in order to accomplish the Father’s will for all time. If all of this is true, we must be able to find this Church in every century from the time of Jesus to the present.

IT? You sure like impersonalizing the Church a lot!

The true underlying Greek NT term for "church" = "called-out ONES" (ecclesia)...meaning the true church is...
...An organism, not an organization;
...flesh & blood -- not brick & mortar;
...the people as the Body of Christ and the Living Temple of the Holy Spirit -- not an institution

Here you've going on for post after post on a few threads this past week -- maybe even saying one or two things right that tends to get overlooked by Christians --and you keep saying that what you are stressing is historically Biblical.

Well, now you're not.

I don't see the Bible ANYWHERE label the Church of Jesus Christ as "institution";
Nor are living people an "it"...

So whoa on some of your finger-pointing 'til you can get your own descriptive act together!

[Vendome]

Popcorn!

[reaganaut]

Sola scriptura for one. There is even a fairly recent book on that specific topic.

[reaganaut]

you, like the LDS, are bastardizing the definition of ‘church’ to make it a denomination.

Christ’s CHURCH encompasses ALL believers Catholic and Protestant.

God is not about ‘denominations’. And I am sure you will want to argue this point but I will not be responding after looking up your recent posting history and discovering a disturbing pattern.

[reaganaut]

BINGO!!

[Elsie]

Hey, I'm just your humble servant trying to emulate you!:^)

Yo momma told you to stay AWAY from folks like me!

[Elsie]

Read Eusibius.

PD would say, "Well done, Grasshopper!"