Posted on 01/03/2011 10:40:41 AM PST by RnMomof7
On January 3, 1521, Pope Leo X issues the papal bull Decet Romanum Pontificem, which excommunicates Martin Luther from the Catholic Church.
Martin Luther, the chief catalyst of Protestantism, was a professor of biblical interpretation at the University of Wittenberg in Germany when he drew up his 95 theses condemning the Catholic Church for its corrupt practice of selling indulgences, or the forgiveness of sins. He followed up the revolutionary work with equally controversial and groundbreaking theological works, and his fiery words set off religious reformers all across Europe.
In January 1521, Pope Leo X excommunicated Luther. Three months later, Luther was called to defend his beliefs before Holy Roman Emperor Charles V at the Diet of Worms, where he was famously defiant. For his refusal to recant his writings, the emperor declared him an outlaw and a heretic. Luther was protected by powerful German princes, however, and by his death in 1546, the course of Western civilization had been significantly altered.
LOL! That's what I like about you, Iscool... Succinctly to the point, and most of all, TACT.
; )
By the way, I'll just point out here that someone has to. God has always worked through the people He has chosen to bring His Word to the world. In the Old Testament, His Word was brought through the Leaders of Israel (Moses, David, Solomon, et al) and the Prophets. In this age, He has given us the Church and various members of His Body. The choice to believe is yours.
God bless you.
we’ve got a lovely sola scriptura thread on in which some sola scriptura proponents have given their sola scriptura proof for why they deny the divinity of Christ and the Trinity.
Define hate.
Thank you very much.
Then you claim to have read both 334 and 346, thus you claim to know that some one erroneously held that the Rome reneged on an treaty from 1871 and surrendered her sovereignty at that time when infact the Church had never signed the treaty and never surrendered sovereignty, and you find it funny? Perhaps it is the allusion to Judas.
Calumny, intended or not, is funny, so long as it is directed against Rome?
Then you claim to have read both 334 and 346, thus you claim to know that some one erroneously held that the Rome reneged on an treaty from 1871 and surrendered her sovereignty at that time when infact the Church had never signed the treaty and never surrendered sovereignty, and you find it funny? Perhaps it is the allusion to Judas.
Calumny, intended or not, is funny, so long as it is directed against Rome?
Some of the Popes have been complete jerks-—but those who have been most flawed from a moral perspective have often had precious little interest in teaching, which seems to be one way God keeps them from teaching error—it is easier to not make a mistake if you don’t do anything. Clearly Popes are not holy little robots. But neither were the apostles. As one cardinal observed, the only memorable action of the apostles acting in unison but apart from Juads is “and they all fled.”
Open dialogue is good. I pray, and hope, that we will all be perfectly conformed to the truth some day, and even though I can say with great conviction that, given the chancce to provide the proper qualifications (which are many), I cannot imagine denying the authority of the RCC.
Iscool:
Long time no see.
I think I responded to Pope Boniface VII 1302 Bull. That was directed at Catholic Kings and specifically Philip VI. It was imprudent language but it is not something that is dogmatic or a doctrine that it is at state. A papal Bull is authoritative but not binding to the level of Council definition with the Pope’s agreement or an infallible statement dealing with a faith or morals question.
Yes, Christ found one Church and thus the unity of the Church and leadership to ensure its unity was given to St. Peter and thus his successors.
Iscool Salvation comes from Christ who is the head of the CHurch but his head is not separated from his body which is the Church. So salvation, all of it comes from Christ, and the means thru which [normative means] Grace is given to humanity is thru the Church which is his body.
In this sense, Christ can’t be separated from the Church because to do so is the separate Christ from himself. The Church is Christ’s body.
Now those who fall into heresy or apostasy can separate themselves from Christ and the Church, but Christ can’t separate himself from himself.
At least, that is the Catholic understanding of the relationship between Christ [Christology] and the Church [eccelisiology]
Now, at least the tone of your question was a little more charitable than some of the other table pounders here.
A church is known by how closely it follows the precepts laid out in God's word.
Rome fails that test in a variety of areas. Alchemy, coercion and doctrines of fallible men do not constitute Christ's church. Rome obscures what Christ has revealed to babes...
"Be not afraid; only believe." - Mark 5:36
Iscool:
You have made the charges about Ignatius and his writings as being forged? Can you tell me which ones are spurrious?
The great Protestant Patristic Scholars of the 19th century, many who may have held similar beliefs to you, when working on translations of the CHurch Fathers to English came to universal acceptance that the Letter of St. Ignatiius to the Churches at Ephesus, Magnesia, Tralles, Rome, Philadelphia and Smyrna and a personal Letter to St. Polycarp, as being authentic.
These Protestant Patristic scholars include J.B. Lightfoot, Adolph Von Harnack, Theordore Zahn, and F.X. Funk.
In other words, by the end of the 19th century, the best of the Protestant Patristic Scholars now concurred with the Catholic and Orthodox CHurch Patristic Scholars that the Ignatian corpus that I cited above was authentic.
I do not seek to convert anyone Cronos...that is the Holy Spirits work. But I will present the truth as I understand it to be, and do oppose that which is not.
Having spent a good deal of time this morning on the Vatican site, once again seeing much overlapping, a portion of The truth is presented only to find quickly added various unnecessary and confusing "add-ons" which then re-conforms the intitial truth 'to fit' catholic tradition or desires..and twisted thereafter. This then in turn making it difficult, at best, to see any resemblance to the truth which the ordinary man can grasp...it's lost in the gutter aways back...without getting out shovel and pick to go fetch it...if there is even an awareness it was there in the first place.
It is frustrating to see the simplicity which is in Christ mangled to the point where understanding is lost for all the "other stuff" which crowds it out...... When "traditions" get inserted they throw the whole ball of wax into the gutter and take center stage...rather than enlarge ones understanding of the Word of God, (which Rome has determined traditions do)......they instead wrap threads around the truth until it's choaked out completely.......then you see only church-ianity and religious-osity....which of course is what keeps the clergy and the whole vatican heiarchey well in place...all the way to the Pope Himself.
Therefore IMO, the church heiarchey gets in the way of the average individual to enlarge their understanding of the things of God...for if they did know and the truth was known as it really is...this would mean the mirage of power each Priest and those in leadership weld would be revealed.
They do get it, but seemingly for just a moment....only to quickly trample it beneath the feet of "something" else and "more of" and this and that and so forth until the truth is unrecognisable,... for some I think it is intentional.
I do believe the leadership of the catholic church will one day be accountable for trampling on the truth it was given...and other churches which do the same. The following passages sum up how I see the catholic 'leadership' and those who distort or add onto the truth... for the most part to date..... Jesus' own words says it for me:
"They tie up heavy loads and put them on men's shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them......everything they do is for men to see.....they make their phylacteries wide and the tassels on their garments long;.... they love the place of honor at banquets and the most important seats in the (church). They love to be greeted in the marketplaces and to have men call them (Priests)."
..".....You shut the Kingdom of God in men's faces,... you yourselves do not enter,... nor will you let those who are trying to.....you travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when you find one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are." "
.."....You give a tenth...but you have neglected the more important matters of the law-justice, mercy and faithfulness.... you strain out a gnat but swallow a camel." Some in the catholic faith believe that the catholic church has replaced Israel....in respect to their leadership, and the above written, I would agree....and unfortunately it's membership cannot see for thier blindguides.
I claimed no such thing.
Calumny, intended or not, is funny, so long as it is directed against Rome?
I wasn't being funny.
Not quite. See Killen's reply to Lightfoot for a more rounded view:
THE IGNATIAN EPISTLES ENTIRELY SPURIOUS (PDF) by WILLIAM. P. KILLEN, D.D., PROFESSOR OF ECCLESIASTICAL HISTORY, AND PRINCIPAL OF THE PRESBYTERIAN THEOLOGICAL FACULTY, IRELAND
fortunately for all of us, historians from all faiths ( and none at all ) acknowledge these 7 letters as being written by St Ignatius. this, of course, is devastating to all who hold to the Gnostic heresy of denying the Real Presence in the Eucharist. If St Ignatius heard St John preach for years, heard him say Mass probably over 100 times, had every opportunity to ask him any question he wanted about Jesus, was chosen to be Bishop of Antioch due to his faithfulness to the Gospel and ultimately died as a martyr, torn to pieces by lions in Rome, if this man said the Gnostics abstained from the Eucharist since they did not believe it was the Body of Christ, it is unbelieveable to all but the most blind to the Truth, that Jesus was not lying when he said “This is My Body”. Think about that, these people claim the Bible as the sole rule of faith, yet deny the clearest statement made by Christ in the Gospels. If you don’t recognize the Body of Christ in the Eucharist, and don’t recognize the Body of Christ in His Church, are you making yourself a mini pope in your own private interpertation of the Catholic Scriptures? I believe the JW’S, LDS’s, SDA, ChofC, CS all deny the Real Presence, is the company you keep in opposition to 16 centuries of Christian Faith?
thanks for posting, facts are stubborn things!
next we will hear that Justin Martyr, St Iraneus, Cyril of Jerusalem, St Augustine all were forgeries! after that, we will hear of the “real” Christian Church that existed in the post apostolic period until some point in time, that no one can quite pinpoint, the evil Catholic Church came into existence and the whole Church went into centuries of apostacy. Fits rather neatly with what Joseph Smith taught.Except there is as much historical evidence of a non-Catholic Christian Church from the times of the Apostles, as there is for Jesus preaching in North America as taught by the Mormons. Killen is a Presbyterian trying hard to rehabilitate Calvin’s errors and is found wanting by disinterested scholars.
i always suspected that men have gone into the priesthood for all the power and wealth it brings them, and you confirmed it for me. Thanks for your insight, that Vatican website needs to be re-done if you are cracking the secret code!
the more i think about it, these St Ignatius letters were probably 2nd century Jesuit forgeries, written with the intent to trick true Christians into idolatry. I also suspect St. Ignatius wasn’t really torn to pieces by the lions, more Jesuit trickery!
Sure have...Read it and its history...But it's not in my Bible...
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