Not at all. Just having a hard time accepting some of their threads (like this one for example) that I find extremely offensive. I’m at the point that I’m not going to allow any protected LDS/Mormon Caucus threads on FR. You can’t post offensive stuff like this and expect Christians not to object to it. And I’ll be damned if I’m going to suspend or ban or deny any Christian from objecting to what he believes is the false prophecy of Joseph Smith. Whether Mormons will feel welcome here after this or not is completely up to them individually.
It sounds like you want FR to become a de facto Anti Mormon site.
If everyone is tired of all things Mormon on FR, why not just stop allowing all Mormon posts altogether, pro and con. If one would stop, I suspect the other would too.
I think you would have a hard time moderating the Glenn Beck threads to make sure they didn't digress, but if you feel that strongly, put an end to all of it.
A pivotal decision in this Politically Correct environment where everybody embodies the words "free speech" in order to be heard. Some words are not to be allowed if it is missionary work by the Mormon church. And I believe the majority of the Mormon posters are on their missions to post and challenge here.
So I suppose that a thread offering congratulations to the two female senior Episcopalian clergy at Boston’s St Paul’s Cathedral on their “historic” lesbian marriage to one another yesterday is out of the question as well?
Amen to what you said! I object to mormons spouting their false religion on FR.
Thanks much, Jim!
ALL: Jim has assumed a very reasoned position.
And I'll show you that from the article posted itself.
Paragon Defender published a piece with several provocative references:
Reference I From the article: ...(Joseph Smith—History 1:15). With every bit of energy Joseph had, he began to call upon God to deliver him from the grasp of this enemy. “At the very moment when I was ready to sink into despair and abandon myself to destruction … , I saw a pillar of light. … “It no sooner appeared than I found myself delivered from the enemy which held me bound” (Joseph Smith—History 1:16–17)...
Anyone familiar with Joseph Smith-History will know that if you continue beyond verses 15-17 as cited into verses 18-20, they reference ALL Christians as "corrupt"...
...ALL of their creeds as an "abomination"...
...They are ALL wrong, etc.
The entire "First Vision" of Mormonism is highly provocative to Christians...and Mormons somehow keep expecting that we won't be provoked by references to an incident where extreme mudslinging was done on our creeds and those of us who profess Christianity!
Reference II from the article: The First Vision in the grove, the translation of the Book of Mormon, the REVISION of the Bible...laid the basic foundation of the Church, largely through the rapidly expanding knowledge and testimony of the Prophet Joseph Smith...
So anybody can just come along, not know Greek & Hebrew, rewrite the Bible...and Christians will respond, "ho-hum???"
So if I rewrite the Book of Mormon, and Doctrine & Covenants, & the Pearl of Great Price -- and then post a "caucus" article announcing such a "revision," Mormons won't be provoked by that & are expected to obey some "Keep out!" sign??? REALLY??????
I can't believe how two-faced so many Mormons are!!! WHAT YOU WOULDN'T DARE STAND FOR for one measley second IF DONE TO YOUR 'SACRED WORKS' -- YET YOU FEEL YOU CAN JUST COME ALONG, TOSS THIS 'REWRITE' IN OUR FACES, AND WE'RE SUPPOSED TO JUST BE 100% NON-REACTIVE TO THAT??? REALLY???
Reference III from the article: One could research the numerous topics and cross-references of the Topical Guide and Guide to the Scriptures referring to Jesus Christ and still not understand the breadth of information on the Savior that the Prophet Joseph Smith brought to the world.
I have a copy of that Topical Guide published by the Mormons...I'll reference that in one of my ensuing posts.
I agree. Thank you.
Thanks.
As I mentioned in my last post (#423) -- and in an earlier one (#334) -- JimRob took a very reasoned position in objecting to this article being placed in a protected "caucus" when the article's references themselves are so provocatively controversial.
I mentioned in post #334 I would address yet another article reference from what Paragon Defender provocatively posted...and I began doing that in my last post.
Reference from the article that Paragon Defender tried to sneek by as a "caucus": One could research the numerous topics and cross-references of the Topical Guide and Guide to the Scriptures referring to Jesus Christ and still not understand the breadth of information on the Savior that the Prophet Joseph Smith brought to the world.
I have a copy of the Topical Guide to the Scriptures of of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (published by the church-owned Deseret Book Company, 1977). I will reference this in my posts as the '77 TopGuide.
What are some of the other objectionable components of this book and the way they manufacture a distinctly different Jesus (I will only quote those references under the headings where they attempt to sale a different Jesus):
(1) '77 TopGuide, p. 229: Alma 7:10: "He shall be born of Mary, at Jerusalem which is the" [Joseph Smith was ignorant that the Christ child was born in Bethlehem!!!...since his birthplace is linked to a prophesy in Micah 5, Ephrata, no Jewish prophet in the Book of Mormon -- if there was one -- would make this mistake...In that day, Bethlehem was NOT considered as "Jerusalem," no matter what Mormon apologists try to tell you!]
(2) '77 TopGuide, p. 239: D&C19:10: For Endless is my Name [This is where Smith tried to change the doctrine of eternal hell to just being temporary -- making "endless" an adjective of Jesus' Name!]
(3) '77 TopGuide, pp. 231, 233 [see Jesus Christ, Crucifixion of" and "Jesus Christ, Death of": References: "3 Nephi 9:16(1-22)" on p. 231 and "3 Nephi 8:5(5-25)" on pp. 231, 233.]
Now why would it be important for Christians to respond to this?
* The Biblical Jesus came to be our righteousness (1 Cor. 1:30); the Book of Mormon jesus came to search for mere human-produced righteousness (3 Nephi 9:11)
* The Biblical Jesus came to see that they would have life (John 10:10); the Book of Mormon jesus came to bring down destruction (3 Nephi 9:12) and ensure that people would "howl" in that destruction (3 Nephi 8:23)
* The Biblical Jesus came to ensure people would have abundant life (John 10:10); the Book of Mormon jesus came to ensure people would be in "continual...mourning" (3 Nephi 8:23)
* The Biblical Jesus came to be the Light of the world (John 1:9; 8:12; 9:5); the Book of Mormon jesus came to yield complete darkness for three days (3 Nephi 8:23)
* This ABSOLUTELY VITAL difference of the Mormon “restored gospel” is presenting a violent Mormon jesus: When the Mormon jesus dies, he unleashes punishment and levels 16 cities, killing 70,000-->90,000 people (see 3 Nephi 8 and 3 Nephi 9). Nothing of the kind is stated in the Bible.
Yes, there was judgment on the cross!
Yes, it was terrible!
But the real Jesus absorbed all of that judgment and terror -- our very sins -- there on the cross!
Too many LDS & RLDS alike ONLY see the Book of Mormon Easter judgment upon people! The week that followed the Book of Mormon jesus’ resurrection, was a terrible 4 days or so! No wonder they want to stay away from the cross and what immediately happened according to the Joseph Smith version of events:
Mormon version of Jesus speaking post-resurrection:
city Zarahemla: I burned with fire, and the inhabitants thereof [3 Nephi 9:3; cf. 3 Nephi 8:8, 24)
city Moroni: I caused to be sunk in the depths of the sea, and the inhabitants thereof to be drowned. [3 Nephi 9:4; cf. 3 Nephi 8:9]
city Moronihah: have I covered with earth, and the inhabitants thereof, to hide their iniquities and their abominations from before my face, that the blood of the prophets and the saints shall not come any more unto me against them. (3 Nephi 9:5)
city Gilgal: have I caused to be sunk, and the inhabitants thereof to be buried up in the depths of the earth; [3 Nephi 9:6]
cities Onihah, Mocum, and Jerusalem: waters have I caused to come up in the stead thereof, to hide their wickedness and abominations from before my face, that the blood of the prophets and the saints shall not come up any more unto me against them. [3 Nephi 9:7]
cities Gadiandi, Gadiomnah, Jacob, and Gimgimno: all these have I caused to be sunk, and made hills and valleys in the places thereof; and the inhabitants thereof have I buried up in the depths of the earth, to hide their wickedness and abominations from before my face, that the blood of the prophets and the saints should not come up any more unto me against them. [3 Nephi 9:8]
city Jacobugath: have I caused to be burned with fire because of their sins and their wickedness, which was above all the wickedness of the whole earth, because of their secret murders and combinations; for it was they that did destroy the peace of my people and the government of the land; therefore I did cause them to be burned, to destroy them from before my face, that the blood of the prophets and the saints should not come up unto me any more against them. [3 Nephi 9:9]
cities Laman, Josh, Gad, Kishkumen: have I caused to be burned with fire, and the inhabitants thereof, because of their wickedness in casting out the prophets, and stoning those whom I did send to declare unto them concerning their wickedness and their abominations. [3 Nephi 9:10]
In the true gospel Jesus is entombed.
In the Mormon “restored gospel", the mass of people in Moronihah is the emphasis of entombment, having been covered with an entire mountain by the Mormon jesus! (3 Nephi 8:10)
On Easter week! The other cities were all either sunk by the Mormon jesus, or horrifically burned to death, plus for added emphasis, ”many great destructions have I caused to come upon this land...” (3 Nephi 9:12)
The true gospel: "It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners." (Bible, Mark 2:17)
The Mormon Easter version of this: 11 And because they did cast them all out, that there were NONE RIGHTEOUS AMONG THEM, I did send down fire and destroy them, that their wickedness and abominations might be hid from before my face, that the blood of the prophets and the saints whom I sent among them might not cry unto me from the ground against them. [3 Nephi 9:11]
Now if the destruction of all these Book of Mormon “cities” wasn’t enough of an “Easter tale” for Smith, here’s what he said went on in immediate days following Jesus’ resurrection:
3 Nephi 9:12:
12 And many great destructions have I caused to come upon this land…
3 Nephi 8:
6 And there was also a great and terrible tempest; and there was terrible thunder, insomuch that it did shake the whole earth as if it was about to divide asunder.
7 And there were exceedingly sharp lightnings, such as never had been known in all the land.
11 And there was a great and terrible destruction in the land southward.
12 But behold, there was a more great and terrible destruction in the land northward; for behold, the whole face of the land was changed, because of the tempest and the whirlwinds, and the thunderings and the lightnings, and the exceedingly great quaking of the whole earth;
13 And the highways were broken up, and the level roads were spoiled, and many smooth places became rough.
15 And there were some cities which remained; but the damage thereof was exceedingly great, and there were many in them who were slain.
16 And there were some who were carried away in the whirlwind; and whither they went no man knoweth, save they know that they were carried away.
17 And thus the face of the whole earth became deformed, because of the tempests, and the thunderings, and the lightnings, and the quaking of the earth.
18 And behold, the rocks were rent in twain; they were broken up upon the face of the whole earth, insomuch that they were found in broken fragments, and in seams and in cracks, upon all the face of the land.
19 And it came to pass that when the thunderings, and the lightnings, and the storm, and the tempest, and the quakings of the earth did cease—for behold, they did last for about the space of three hours; and it was said by some that the time was greater; nevertheless, all these great and terrible things were done in about the space of three hours—and then behold, there was darkness upon the face of the land.
20 And it came to pass that there was thick darkness upon all the face of the land, insomuch that the inhabitants thereof who had not fallen could feel the vapor of darkness;
21 And there could be no light, because of the darkness, neither candles, neither torches; neither could there be fire kindled with their fine and exceedingly dry wood, so that there could not be any light at all;
22 And there was not any light seen, neither fire, nor glimmer, neither the sun, nor the moon, nor the stars, for so great were the mists of darkness which were upon the face of the land.
23 And it came to pass that it did last for the space of three days that there was no light seen; and there was great mourning and howling and weeping among all the people continually; yea, great were the groanings of the people, because of the darkness and the great destruction which had come upon them.
24 And in one place they were heard to cry, saying: O that we had repented before this great and terrible day, and then would our brethren have been spared, and they would not have been burned in that great city Zarahemla…
I'm sorry, but Jesus didn't come to make people "howl" in their own destruction (3 Nephi 8:23)...that wasn't his purpose in coming the first time!
Jesus said: I am come that they might have LIFE, and that they might have it more abundantly. (John 10:10)
(4) '77 TopGuide, pp. 224, 226, 232, 234, 250: This book cites JFS - V -- standing for "Joseph F. Smith - Vision" -- which was originally at that time NOT yet Doctrine & Covenants 138. '77 TopGuide references vv. 2, 3, 24, 18, 27 and 35 in conjunction with "Jesus Christ."
Now why is this inflammatory & should be allowed to be responded to by the Christian community?
'Twas 1918 -- and Joseph F. Smith -- a nephew of Joseph Smith -- was mourning the death of his eldest son, Hyrum Mack Smith, who died January 1918 due to a ruptured appendix; 8 months later, in late September, Smith's daughter-in-law, Hyrum's widow, Ida Bowman Smith, died of heart failure a week after giving birth to a baby boy.
The grieving, ailing, aging 92 yo Smith probably sought contact with the spirit world.
Lds thought so much of more dead appearing to their "prophet" in 1918 that they added it to their "Scriptures" (D&C 138)...His uncle, Joseph Smith, has dozens of accounts of the dead appearing to him. And then the Lds church thought so much of this that they put most of them in a 2007 book on the series of Lds "Presidents" ("Prophets").
Specifically, Joseph F. Smith -- claimed 92 years ago this month to see the hosts of the dead, both small and great...an innumerable company of the spirits of the just (D&C 138:11-12) -- and these spirits were just waiting for Mormon missionaries to come their way to be redeemed -- as JF Smith said that the Mormon jesus had prepared "the faithful spirits of the prophets who had testified of him in the flesh; That they might carry the message of redemption unto all the dead, unto whom he could not go personally, because of their rebellion and transgression, that they through the ministration of his servants might also hear his words. (D&C 138:37-38)
Who was he talking about? This is where Mormon beliefs gets confusing. You need to understand that Mormonism teaches that the spirit world is on this planet; that it's not very far from us; and that "all mankind" goes there upon death, no matter what you did in this life. If you don't believe me, go to this Lds article as a primer: The Spirit World, Our Next Home So on the one hand, Joseph F. Smith mentions seeing the "spirits of the just", but then he also mentions seeing spirit-rebels.
Lds try to claim the apostle Peter's account of Jesus proclaiming victory to the dead in prison as Scriptural justification. But Jesus didn't go preach to the "just spirits." And the rebel spirits He preached to were only those who lived during Noah's day, a very limited number (1 Peter 3:20) in contrast to those who've ever lived on this planet. This Mormon elder writing this article tries to claim that a "gospel" was going out to those who "rejected the prophets," but there were no "prophets" mentioned in the first several chapters of the book of Genesis (up through Noah's day). Even Noah is never mentioned to be a prophet.
Besides, Jesus made it quite clear in an account about a certain rich man and a certain beggar named Lazarus (Luke 16) that when the wealthy man told Abraham that he had five brothers who should be warned about that place of flaming torment (Luke 16:23-28), Abraham told him: "They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them...If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead." (Luke 16:29, 31)
So: Joseph F. Smith and this elder-writer must consider Abraham and Jesus to be liars. Here they clearly said these in torment will not be persuaded even if a resurrected missionary comes to them. Mormons claim an entire missionary structure has been set up to go to the rebel dead who have rejected the prophets. [See link above, The Spirit World, Our Next Home, bottom of the article, for proof]. Who are you going to believe? Abraham and Jesus? Or the Mormon false prophets who contradict them?
Source: My post #2, from: The Doctrine of Temple Work
(See also: Becoming Scripture: D&C 138 )
JimRob, I appreciate your vigilance!
Jim, I stand firmly beside you. Thank you!
Just having a hard time accepting some of their threads (like this one for example) that I find extremely offensive. I’m at the point that I’m not going to allow any protected LDS/Mormon Caucus threads on FR. You can’t post offensive stuff like this and expect Christians not to object to it. And I’ll be damned if I’m going to suspend or ban or deny any Christian from objecting to what he believes is the false prophecy of Joseph Smith. Whether Mormons will feel welcome here after this or not is completely up to them individually.
***That is the heart of the matter. I have often wondered why the mormons were allowed caucus status on their threads. It essentially elevates their heresy to the same level as the mainstream christian beliefs.
This does bring up the issue of who should be granted caucus status on FR. For instance, the Jehovah’s Witnesses have a similar level of heresy. Most christian demoninations fall under what C.S. Lewis described as “Mere Christianity”. I have found my own very basic litmus test, which is the deity of Christ: Do they believe that Jesus was GOD (Yes, YHWH God)? Or do they think he was A God (JW’s) or that we’re all gods (Bahai & others) or that we can become gods (mormonism, as far as I can tell) or that He simply was NOT God & we’re all mistaken (atheism, agnosticism, scientism). For my own purposes, I do not give anyone spiritual credence if they do not believe that Jesus was GOD Himself. Perhaps this would make a simple dividing line to determine if someone should be granted the status of caucus threads here on FR?
It is a bit like pulling the rug out from under these poor, unfortunate souls who have bought into the heresy of mormonism and felt they were welcome to post on caucus threads here on FR. I would prefer to see a more reasoned, methodical approach so that it cannot be chalked up to capriciousness.