Posted on 12/29/2010 11:41:03 AM PST by markomalley
This is a re-post of a previous blog but it warrants repeating. From time to time I get non-Catholics who read the blog and invite me to read their blogs in the hopes I will decide to convert. They believe they are being obedient to "preach the gospel in season and out." The presupposition with some of these individuals is that Catholicism is a false religion or a "false gospel" . The fact that a person would believe Catholicism is false clearly indicates that they have never studied what Catholicism is all about from a Catholic perspective. It is easy to draw a caricature of what Catholicism is based on myths, lies, distortions. After all, this has been going on for the past 500 years and the purveyors of falsehood have had an abundant amount of time to perfect their attacks.
What I can tell you is that when a person begins to read what the Church actually says about itself and its doctrines, the scales often fall from their eyes and the Holy Spirit brings them Home. I was one of those.
Post hoc ergo propter hoc (after this, therefore because of this): "Constantine must have been the real source of the Catholic Church's teachings because after his reign the Church grew tremendously, and before his reign it wasn't as well-known" (Ignores the simple fact that Constantine merely stopped the persecution of Christians with the Edict of Milan and allowed Christianity to spread. It also ignores the writings of the Church Fathers who lived before Constantine -- and who were Catholic.)
Straw man: "You guys worship statues, and that's evil. Therefore, your religion is Satanic." (Ignores that fact that we don't worship statues)
(comes From FISHEATERS WEBSITE)
This is a delusion.
It almost always is a language problem. Thanks for some of the most concise comparisons I have seen in these threads for some time.
Yes, more time should be spent on getting an accurate understanding of basic terms. Many conversations are just talking past each other.
You will know within seconds of walking into the church.
I knew I wasn't in one the first time I attended services at a RCC with my wife. I was the only one walking in with a Bible.
My wife realized what it was to be in a Bible believing church the first time she walked into my church, everyone had their own Bibles and you could tell they were used.
Your post was removed because it antagonized another Freeper.
Do you have FOUR readings from the Bible every Sunday? I doubt it. Do you have THREE readings from the Bible every weekday? Again I doubt it.
Yes, Catholics read from the Bible have Bible study groups, Scripture Study groups, faith formation classes for adults!!!!! (horrors--isn't it?) LOL!
The baptism is real. It is a Sacrament that gives grace.
Why do you say it is a delusion? Source, please, or is this just your opinion? Have you ever studied the Catholic Church? The Sacraments and what they do?
It would seem that you might want to attain further knowledge before you speak with your fingers.
For your continued study:
"Baptism Now Saves You" - Nuts & Bolts - Tim Staples
Catholic Biblical Apologetics: Baptism: Initiation and Regeneration
Are Catholics “Born Again?”
Baptizing infants, Pope speaks of 'adventure of being disciples'
Celebrate Your Birthday in the Church
Infant Baptism
Once a Catholic . . . (and part 2) . . . The Chicken's Questions
How Soon Should a Baby be Baptized?
Baptismal Complexes- The Sacrament of Baptism, Part 2
The Catechism of St. Thomas Aquinas BAPTISM
Beginning Catholic: The Sacrament of Baptism: Gateway to New Life [Ecumenical]
Converted Muslim Tells Story Behind Papal Baptism
What You [Catholics] Need to Know: Baptism [Catholic/Orthodox Caucus]
A Brief Catechism for Adults - Lesson 20: The Sacrament of Baptism
Baptism and the Usus Antiquior (Catholic/Orthodox Caucus)
Justified by Baptism (fallout from the Beckwith conversion grows)
The Million-Dollar Infant Baptism
Mystical Baptism and Limbo
The Early Church Fathers on Baptism - Catholic/Orthodox Caucus
A Critique of a Critique (On Baptism by Immersion)
Catholics, Reformed Christian Churches sign document recognizing common baptism
It was said to me that how catholics see the word.."Church" and how non-catholics see "church" are also different...so communication becomes difficult at best...for the language used differs so much...... An example would be I see the "church" as the body of believers in Christ with Christ as the head. They may see it as so but then 'add' all this other stuff to that.
Great point! Rome elevates herself to the center. She wrote the scripture, she approved the scripture, only she can interpret the scripture.
She becomes the avenue of salvation, instead of the recipient. She (and Mary) is the main source of "grace" (via sacraments).
Most proselytizing by RC's amount to "come back to the church", "only the church has the fullness of the faith" instead of conversion to the Savior. A very basic misunderstanding of the Gospel. Trusting in the church saves no one.
In 27 years as a Catholic, I knew no one who carried around or read a bible, certainly not to Mass.
Well, now you know me, and I’ve carried a Bible to Mass. (And I am a cradle Catholic!) LOL!
BTW, you are a baptized Catholic and will always be a Catholic. You will be welcomed back into the church at any time.
The local priests shared that many of the Confessions here at Christmas time were people coming back to the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church after being away many, many years.
I pray for all of you to come back to the first and true Church all the time......Many blessings to you during the remainder of the Christmas season.
John 3:8The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.
There is a great deal of overlapping of man made traditions, which are often times seen as "Gospel". This brings much confusion if one does not understand there's a difference between what the scriptures say and that wich Rome determines is also truth outside of the scriptures.
Of course many false religions do this as well. Christian verbaige is popular for all to use as it is an attraction in and of itself. Even satan used scripture to tempt Christ...so not unusual this continues to be an arrow in his quiver to entice the unknowing or unsuspecting...tack on ones own idea of what religion, or it's practices should be and anyone can begin their own sect or religion...or in fact mislead and divert from the centrality of Christ.
I heard recently that satan goes about "seeking" who he may devour...and the fact he is "seeking" indicates there are those he cannot devour..... Interesting thought.
**Great point! Rome elevates herself to the center. She wrote the scripture, she approved the scripture, only she can interpret the scripture.**
Wrong!
The apostles and disciples and prophets of the Old Testament wrote the Scriptures.
You remarked about trust. To me, trust means faith. I have faith in God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Nothing wrong with that.
You wrote:
“REALLY? JESUS changed EVERYTHING! Thanks for making my point. Tradition is not truth.”
It is when it comes from God and His Church. Show me the inspired Table of Contents from your Bible. If there is no such thing, and there isn’t, then how do you know which books belong in the Bible other than through tradition?
The only crying Liberal is you. If it’s all about Jesus and His Word, then that includes the Church since He founded it. Attack the Church and you attack Christ.
“54% of Catholics voted for bambi.”
100% of CINO’s voted for Obama. 100% of Catholics did not.
“Catholics whine all the time - that’s not a secret or hide under an ‘ecumenical’ banner with a hit piece against Truth.”
I have no doubt that some Catholics whine. Some Protestants do it quite often. That doesn’t change the fact that anti-Catholicism is real.
“Jesus founded HIS CHURCH based on HIS WORD alone.”
Actually He founded it on Peter - that’s what the Word says. And really the foundation is the Incarnation itself for without that you couldn’t have any grace.
“The RCC is pro tradition which makes them Anti-Word.”
That isn’t even logical on your part. Since the Word and teh Tradition come from the same source - God and His Church - we are both pro-Word and pro-Tradition. You, meanwhile, apparently oppose both.
“The RCC is the counterfeit church.”
No. Christ founded the Catholic Church.
“Now STOP being antagonistic!”
If you find logic antagonistic, then this forum is not for you.
“I’ll let you ramble on solo - I’m saving my pearls.”
You have none.
Scripture
I. Born Again in Water Baptism
John 1:32 - when Jesus was baptized, He was baptized in the water and the Spirit, which descended upon Him in the form of a dove. The Holy Spirit and water are required for baptism. Also, Jesus’ baptism was not the Christian baptism He later instituted. Jesus’ baptism was instead a royal anointing of the Son of David (Jesus) conferred by a Levite (John the Baptist) to reveal Christ to Israel, as it was foreshadowed in 1 Kings 1:39 when the Son of David (Solomon) was anointed by the Levitical priest Zadok. See John 1:31; cf. Matt. 3:16; Mark 1:9; Luke 3:21.
John 3:3,5 - Jesus says, “Truly, truly, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.” When Jesus said “water and the Spirit,” He was referring to baptism (which requires the use of water, and the work of the Spirit).
John 3:22 - after teaching on baptism, John says Jesus and the disciples did what? They went into Judea where the disciples baptized. Jesus’ teaching about being reborn by water and the Spirit is in the context of baptism.
John 4:1 - here is another reference to baptism which naturally flows from Jesus’ baptismal teaching in John 3:3-5.
Acts 8:36 – the eunuch recognizes the necessity of water for his baptism. Water and baptism are never separated in the Scriptures.
Acts 10:47 - Peter says “can anyone forbid water for baptizing these people..?” The Bible always links water and baptism.
Acts 22:16 – Ananias tells Saul, “arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins.” The “washing away” refers to water baptism.
Titus 3:5-6 – Paul writes about the “washing of regeneration,” which is “poured out on us” in reference to water baptism. “Washing” (loutron) generally refers to a ritual washing with water.
Heb. 10:22 – the author is also writing about water baptism in this verse. “Having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water.” Our bodies are washed with pure water in water baptism.
2 Kings 5:14 - Naaman dipped himself seven times in the Jordan, and his flesh was restored like that of a child. This foreshadows the regenerative function of baptism, by water and the Holy Spirit.
Isaiah 44:3 - the Lord pours out His water and His Spirit. Water and the Spirit are linked to baptism. The Bible never separates them.
Ezek. 36:25-27 - the Lord promises He will sprinkle us with water to cleanse us from sin and give us a new heart and spirit. Paul refers to this verse in Heb. 10:22. The teaching of Ezekiel foreshadows the salvific nature of Christian baptism instituted by Jesus and taught in John 3:5, Titus 3:5, 1 Peter 3:21 and Acts 22:16.
Top
II. Baptism is Salvific, Not Just Symbolic
Matt. 28:19-20 - Jesus commands the apostles to baptize all people “in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.” Many Protestant churches are now teaching that baptism is only a symbolic ritual, and not what actually cleanses us from original sin. This belief contradicts Scripture and the 2,000 year-old teaching of the Church.
Acts 2:38 - Peter commands them to repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ in order to be actually forgiven of sin, not just to partake of a symbolic ritual.
Matt. 28:19-20; Acts 2:38 - there is nothing in these passages or elsewhere in the Bible about baptism being symbolic. There is also nothing about just accepting Jesus as personal Lord and Savior in order to be saved.
Mark 16:16 - Jesus said “He who believes AND is baptized will be saved.” Jesus says believing is not enough. Baptism is also required. This is because baptism is salvific, not just symbolic. The Greek text also does not mandate any specific order for belief and baptism, so the verse proves nothing about a “believer’s baptism.”
John 3:3,5 - unless we are “born again” of water and Spirit in baptism, we cannot enter into the kingdom of God. The Greek word for the phrase “born again” is “anothen” which literally means “begotten from above.” See, for example, John 3:31 where “anothen” is so used. Baptism brings about salvation, not just a symbolism of our salvation.
Acts 8:12-13; 36; 10:47 - if belief is all one needs to be saved, why is everyone instantly baptized after learning of Jesus?
Acts 16:15; 31-33; 18:8; 19:2,5 - these texts present more examples of people learning of Jesus, and then immediately being baptized. If accepting Jesus as personal Lord and Savior is all one needs to do to be saved, then why does everyone in the early Church immediately seek baptism?
Acts 9:18 - Paul, even though he was directly chosen by Christ and immediately converted to Christianity, still had to be baptized to be forgiven his sin. This is a powerful text which demonstrates the salvific efficacy of water baptism, even for those who decide to give their lives to Christ.
Acts 22:16 - Ananias tells Paul, “arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins,” even though Paul was converted directly by Jesus Christ. This proves that Paul’s acceptance of Jesus as personal Lord and Savior was not enough to be forgiven of his sin and saved. The sacrament of baptism is required.
Acts 22:16 - further, Ananias’ phrase “wash away” comes from the Greek word “apolouo.” “Apolouo” means an actual cleansing which removes sin. It is not a symbolic covering up of sin. Even though Jesus chose Paul directly in a heavenly revelation, Paul had to be baptized to have his sins washed away.
Rom. 6:4 - in baptism, we actually die with Christ so that we, like Him, might be raised to newness of life. This means that, by virtue of our baptism, our sufferings are not in vain. They are joined to Christ and become efficacious for our salvation.
1 Cor. 6:11 - Paul says they were washed, sanctified, and justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, in reference to baptism. The “washing” of baptism gives birth to sanctification and justification, which proves baptism is not just symbolic.
Gal. 3:27 - whoever is baptized in Christ puts on Christ. Putting on Christ is not just symbolic. Christ actually dwells within our soul.
Col. 2:12 - in baptism, we literally die with Christ and are raised with Christ. It is a supernatural reality, not just a symbolic ritual. The Scriptures never refer to baptism as symbolic.
Titus 3:5-7 – “He saved us by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit, which He poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ, so that we might be justified by His grace and become heirs of eternal life.” This is a powerful text which proves that baptism regenerates our souls and is thus salvific. The “washing of regeneration” “saves us.” Regeneration is never symbolic, and the phrase “saved us” refers to salvation. By baptism, we become justified by His grace (interior change) and heirs of eternal life (filial adoption). Because this refers to baptism, the verse is about the beginning of the life in Christ. No righteous deeds done before baptism could save us. Righteous deeds after baptism are necessary for our salvation.
There is also a definite parallel between John 3:5 and Titus 3:5: (1) John 3:5 – enter the kingdom of God / Titus 3:5 – He saved us. (2) John 3:5 – born of water / Titus 3:5 – washing. (3) John 3:5 – born of the Spirit / Titus 3:5 – renewal in the Spirit.
Heb. 10:22 - in baptism, our hearts are sprinkled clean from an evil conscience (again, dealing with the interior of the person) as our bodies are washed with pure water (the waters of baptism). Baptism regenerates us because it removes original sin, sanctifies our souls, and effects our adoption as sons and daughters in Jesus Christ.
1 Peter 3:21 - Peter expressly writes that “baptism, corresponding to Noah’s ark, now saves you; not as a removal of dirt from the body, but for a clear conscience. “ Hence, the verse demonstrates that baptism is salvific (it saves us), and deals with the interior life of the person (purifying the conscience, like Heb. 10:22), and not the external life (removing dirt from the body). Many scholars believe the phrase “not as a removal of dirt from the body” is in reference to the Jewish ceremony of circumcision (but, at a minimum, shows that baptism is not about the exterior, but interior life). Baptism is now the “circumcision” of the new Covenant (Col. 2:11-12), but it, unlike the old circumcision, actually saves us, as Noah and his family were saved by water.
Again, notice the parallel between Heb. 10:22 and 1 Peter 3:21: (1) Heb. 10:22 – draw near to the sanctuary (heaven) / 1 Peter 3:21 – now saves us. (2) Heb. 10:22 – sprinkled clean, washed with pure water / 1 Peter 3:20-21 – saved through water, baptism. (3) Heb. 10:22 – from an evil conscience (interior) / 1 Peter 3:21 – for a clear conscience (interior). Titus 3:6 and 1 Peter 3:21 also specifically say the grace and power of baptism comes “through Jesus Christ” (who transforms our inner nature).
Mark 16:16 - Jesus says that he who believes and is baptized will be saved. However, the Church has always taught that baptism is a normative, not an absolute necessity. There are some exceptions to the rule because God is not bound by His sacraments.
Luke 23:43 - the good thief, although not baptized, shows that there is also a baptism by desire, as Jesus says to him that he will be in paradise. It should also be noted that when Jesus uses the word “paradise,” He did not mean heaven. Paradise, from the Hebrew “sheol” meant the realm of the righteous dead. This was the place of the dead who were destined for heaven, but who were captive until the Lord’s resurrection. Hence, the good thief was destined for heaven because of his desire to be with Jesus.
Matt. 20:22-23; Mark 10:38-39; Luke 12:50 - there is also a baptism by blood. Lord says, “I have a baptism to be baptized with” referring to His death. Hence, the Church has always taught that those martyred for the faith may be saved without water baptism (e.g., the Holy Innocents).
Mark 10:38 - Jesus says “are you able...to be baptized with the baptism with which I am baptized?,” referring to His death.
1 John 5:6 - Jesus came by water and blood. He was baptized by both water and blood. Martyrs are baptized by blood.
You wrote these scriptures as proof of a works based salvation
4 Finally, brothers, we instructed you how to live in order to please God, as in fact you are living. Now we ask you and urge you in the Lord Jesus to do this more and more. 2 For you know what instructions we gave you by the authority of the Lord Jesus.
17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come! (2 Corinthians 5:17)
10 For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do. (Ephesians 2:10)
Where does it say that these works make us holy (sanctify us)? These are teaching on how as saved man should live..
Only God can sanctify men at least thats what Jesus said
Jhn 17:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
Jhn 17:16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
Jhn 17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
Eph 5:25
Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
Eph 5:26
That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
Sanctification, like justification is a work of God , not a work of man, not a reward for our works, but a wok of Gods grace to us
* Salvation from the Penalty of Sin — Justification.
* Salvation from the Power of Sin — Sanctification
* Salvation from the Presence of Sin — Glorification.
I pray for all of you to come back to the first and true Church all the time......Many blessings to you during the remainder of the Christmas season.
And I pray that you would see that conversion to a church is nothing. Jesus came to save sinners, not those trying to be righteous with His help. Trusting in His finished work on the cross alone, is ones only hope.
When you die, if God asks you why you should be in heaven, what will your answer be?
I will say, Lord I trust you only, have mercy on me and save me a sinner. I believe Jesus paid for my sin and I declare that “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in my heart that You raised him from the dead. I can only stand by His righteousness and mercy toward me a sinner.
John 3:14 14"As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; 15so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. 16"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. 17"For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. 18"He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Romans 10:9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
Nobody said that there aren’t those who HATE Catholicism.
The problem with his statements were that he jumped right from stating that people think Catholicism is false to accusing them of *hate*. He made no distinction but rather lumped everyone who thinks Catholicism is false together as those who hate.
He’s making an invalid comparison.
If he had asked people why the though Catholicism was false, that would have been a different matter. It would have been consistent with his first sentence and the following questions.
Accusing someone of hate because of disagreeing is inflammatory and intellectually dishonest.
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