Posted on 12/29/2010 11:41:03 AM PST by markomalley
Here’s a fact that you might want to add to your list. What was the Christian church before Martin Luther and Henry VIII? Were they not all Catholic? Does this or does it not mean the Catholic Church was the original Christian church?
Oh, I know I will get flak for this. But I have my armor on.
Thanks, that’s a big help. I need all the help I can get in gently arguing with my friends, kin, and neighbors who are horrified that I joined the Church at Easter.
Holy Mary mother of God.
Hail Mary mother of grace the Lord is with thee
Blessed art thou amoung all women
And blessed is the fruit of thy womb Lord Jesus
Were those not the words of the angel Gabriel when he announce that she was to be the mother of God?
As a Catholic, and once an agnostic, the more I study Catholic Theology, the more obvious it becomes how “perfect” the philosophy of the Church is—being universal and giving dignity and worth to everyone. No other faith is equivalent or as well-reasoned—only some Christian ones came close, but without a centralized head and the magisterium, they became whatever pop culture wanted them to be and many became meaningless, and the Bible became just an “evolving” changeable standard—a joke, which becomes useless as a guide for morality.
I defer to Mr. O’Malley to answer your question.
I would be interested to hear his response myself.
BTW, I’m a Navy guy too. lol
> What was the Christian church before Martin Luther and Henry VIII?
Please read “The Pilgrim Church” by E.H. Broadbent.
There were many, many other sects before and concurrent with the emergence of Roman Catholicism; the Paulicians, the Albigenses, the Waldensians, and many others. These were usually horribly persecuted by the emerging Catholic majority.
Then there were the Medici and Lucrecia Borgia. Oy.
All that aside, there were many abuses by all kinds of people who called themselves Christians but behaved like genocidal savages.
Erasmus, when reading a Greek Bible for the first time, wrote, “Either this is not the Bible, or we are not Christians.”
Let us focus on the words of Jesus in John 14, where He said three times, “That ye love one another.”
I don’t care what your tradition is. If you love Jesus, and He is your Lord and Savior, then you are my brother or sister.
I think you are in error that (the average) Protestant hates the Catholic Church.
Be fair - For well-schooled Protestants, the Catholic Church is VERY difficult to understand.
Protestants believe (sola fide aside) that their relationship with the Lord is UP TO THEM. That's how we are taught. That's what we believe.
When I was growing up, the RCC was a curiosity - not an object of hatred.
Now, I've met my share of Catholic haters - I've also met my share of Catholic Prot-haters.
But I don't think that's the barrier for most. I think it's lack of understanding.
You wrote:
“Erasmus, when reading a Greek Bible for the first time, wrote, “Either this is not the Bible, or we are not Christians.””
Erasmus never said any such thing. You’re thinking of Thomas Linacre and that comment is probably taken out of context: “Either this is not the Gospel… or we are not Christians.” I would not rely on anti-Catholic websites for your info on the history of Christianity.
You also wrote:
“There were many, many other sects before and concurrent with the emergence of Roman Catholicism;”
Catholicism is Christianity. You apparently ascribe to a version of history that is ahistorical.
“the Paulicians, the Albigenses, the Waldensians, and many others.”
The Albigensians were not even Christians.
“These were usually horribly persecuted by the emerging Catholic majority.”
The majority were always Catholic.
“Then there were the Medici and Lucrecia Borgia. Oy.”
No, the Oy vey belongs in a conversation about the myths you’re unwittingly imbibed. Lucretia Borgia did nothing - if you look at the actual evidence - that ‘s because there is not actual evidence that Lucretia ever poisoned anyone or committed incest or any of the usual outrageous claims made against her. One of the problems for modern morons is that renaissance writers who hated someone made up all sorts of impossible, implausible and unfactual things about their enemies and people today assume they are true. All modern investigations have shown that there is no credible evidence Lucretia committed any of the crimes she has been accused of for centuries.
“All that aside, there were many abuses by all kinds of people who called themselves Christians but behaved like genocidal savages.”
Genocidal savages? How many of those were there really? I mean, seriously, come on.
“Let us focus on the words of Jesus in John 14, where He said three times, “That ye love one another.””
It’s hard to focus on that when you have nitwits spreading falsehoods and gullibly believing every bad rumor they’ve ever heard.
“I don’t care what your tradition is. If you love Jesus, and He is your Lord and Savior, then you are my brother or sister.”
Then don’t spread lies and half-truths about your brothers and sisters. Actually study history and know what you’re talking about. Is that too much to ask?
I hate to tell you this but if you can actually agree with the theology of any of those groups then the vast majority of Christians would call you a heretic. Do you actually KNOW what these people believed or have you just sopped up some dimwits feeble attempt to "prove" there was always a parallel church?
Sorry, but even though I'm not a Catholic, I don't want to be accused of having grown out of the many cults that were far from being Christian even if the popular myth says they were the "real Church". The more I see people thinking this way and making up their own versions of history, the more I realize that Luther was little more than a horney guy with a guilt complex. At least he didn't add his own book to the Bible the way Calvin did, he just tossed out seven books that had been part of the recognized Bible for almost 1200 years.
You and folks like you are a good recruitment effort for the Catholic Church, that's for sure. If most of the RCIA programs weren't being run by fools who are more liberal leftist than Catholic there'd be a huge increase in the number of Catholics in this country.
Luke 1:41-43 And it came to pass that when Elizabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the infant leaped in her womb. And Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost. And she cried out with a loud voice and said: Blessed are you among women and blessed is the fruit of your womb. And whence is this to me that the mother of my Lord should come to me?
(Not my words, but the author's)
In using the expression, "hate the Catholic Church," I think the author was referring to those people who were within the following criteria:
From time to time I get non-Catholics who read the blog and invite me to read their blogs in the hopes I will decide to convert. They believe they are being obedient to "preach the gospel in season and out." The presupposition with some of these individuals is that Catholicism is a false religion or a "false gospel" .
I don't think the brush was so wide as to include all non-Catholics. At least that's the way I took it.
> modern morons
I see.
Clearly.
Hope you never have any authority.
Your point?
> Sorry, but even though I’m not a Catholic
Right.
> You and folks like you are a good recruitment effort for
> the Catholic Church
Glad to be of assistance.
Read the Martyr’s Mirror or the Bloody Theatre of the Defenseless Christians and get back to me.
Maybe you don’t think they were Christians, either, so their horrible torture and deaths were justified.
That would make you no better than the Mohammadan savages.
My point is that if it swims like a duck, quacks like a duck, flies like a duck, and smells like a duck then it’s probably a duck.
It’s been my experience that the only times I ever hear unprovoked defenses of someone’s particular faith is when that particular faith is not self-evident. Typically, I see that kind of thing from cults.
So if it sounds like a cult, acts like a cult, is paranoid like a cult, and has followers who behave like they’re in a cult, then it’s probably not a duck.
> you worship the God you make up for yourself
I’ve seen that very accusation, in so many words, in the Martyr’s Mirror. More than once.
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