John MacArthur on Mariolatry

Church Mouse ^ | November 18, 2010

[Lauren BaRecall]

I find that most Protestants do not understand veneration, because they do not see the nature of Worship in its fullness.

[3] And when they wanted wine, the mother of Jesus saith unto him, They have no wine.
[4] Jesus saith unto her, Woman, what have I to do with thee? mine hour is not yet come.
[5] His mother saith unto the servants, Whatsoever he saith unto you, do it. KJV John 2:3-5

And neither do they have a full concept of intercession.

What do Protestants do to honor the memory of the Mother of Jesus, especially during Christmas time? She who carried in her womb the Son of the Most High? Do they thank God for her and for His design that through her the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us?

[48] For he hath regarded the low estate of his handmaiden: for, behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed. KJV Luke 1:48

[D-fendr]

I think you are correct on both counts.

Add in the loss of the full knowledge of the Communion of Saints among some outside the Church and it explains the incapacity to comprehend veneration, prayers, and communion with the Saints in Heaven.

[norge]

I feel fortunate that most of the Reformed Protestants I know don’t use such tactics but debate charitably and honestly on matters of doctrine.

You are fortunate, indeed. Many Reformed Protestants are arrogant, intolerant and quite consumed with the intellectual superiority of their arguments.

BTW, I am, I suppose, an "evangelical" Protestant, of the variety whose salvation is predicated on the Grace of the shed blood of Christ, and that alone. I fully expect to see many of my Catholic friends enjoying the worship of God for eternity.

[RobbyS]

From the earliest years, Mary was called “the second Eve.” She being , as Tennyson put it, “our tainted nature’s solitary boast.” Understand that the doctrine of original sin is a development of what Paul says on the issue, and as now understood based on the opinion of St. Augustine.The objection to her exemption was that if she were without original sin that she would not need salvation on the cross. My view is that salvation is to be admitted to the presence of God and to see him face to face. Certainly she was sanctified by the Holy Spirit. The doctrine of the Immaculate conception simply says that she was chosen to be the mother of the Messiah and thereby became a pure vessel.

[norge]

What do Protestants do to honor the memory of the Mother of Jesus, especially during Christmas time?

Not much, really, and that could well be a mistake that many Protestants don't take into account. However, the more recent song "Mary, Did You Know?" is a tender acknowledgement of her role in the birth of Christ. I also realize that many Catholics did not appreciate it.

[Just mythoughts]

From the earliest years, Mary was called “the second Eve.” She being , as Tennyson put it, “our tainted nature’s solitary boast.” Understand that the doctrine of original sin is a development of what Paul says on the issue, and as now understood based on the opinion of St. Augustine.The objection to her exemption was that if she were without original sin that she would not need salvation on the cross. My view is that salvation is to be admitted to the presence of God and to see him face to face. Certainly she was sanctified by the Holy Spirit. The doctrine of the Immaculate conception simply says that she was chosen to be the mother of the Messiah and thereby became a pure vessel.

Earliest years? I think the earliest would be long time after her death, certainly was not penned by Heavenly direction. The only flesh being that has passed through this flesh age perfect and without sin is Christ, in the flesh called Emanuel... God with us.

Now I do not know but is the general acceptance that Eve went to or is going to .ell? Because see I do not believe that decision has been made. As Eve certainly did not commit the unforgivable sin, as that sin can only be committed at an appointed time and that time has not yet arrived.

I think there are going to be a great number of very disappointed people when all mysteries are revealed... Eve could well have repented and accepted Christ when He was in the tomb ministering to all those back to this time.

[Lauren BaRecall]

And, by the grace of God, if they truly grasped these concepts as the Catholic Church teaches, they’d all be Catholics. :-)

[fatboy]

Dude, seriously, do you even know anything?

[RobbyS]

Mary was called the Virgin with such regularity that modern liberal schools asserted that she was confused with pagan goddesses such as Athena who were known as Virgins. This, of course, assumed that the Virgin Birth was a myth, one useful to Christians to promote the divinity of Jesus. But interest in Mary in the second century and following is surprising if one assumes that most Christians gained all their knowledge from Scripture. Unlikely that all churches even had copies of the whole New Testament. Christians works abounded, and the pro-gospel of St. James, the most famous of them provides a picture of the early life of Mary as well as Jesus. The doctrine of the Incarnation cannot, of course, be discussed without reference to Mary’s role. Many Marian devotions use language even i find excessive, but what surprises me is the downplaying of Mary even at Xmas time.

[Just mythoughts]

Mary was called the Virgin with such regularity that modern liberal schools asserted that she was confused with pagan goddesses such as Athena who were known as Virgins. This, of course, assumed that the Virgin Birth was a myth, one useful to Christians to promote the divinity of Jesus. But interest in Mary in the second century and following is surprising if one assumes that most Christians gained all their knowledge from Scripture. Unlikely that all churches even had copies of the whole New Testament. Christians works abounded, and the pro-gospel of St. James, the most famous of them provides a picture of the early life of Mary as well as Jesus. The doctrine of the Incarnation cannot, of course, be discussed without reference to Mary’s role. Many Marian devotions use language even i find excessive, but what surprises me is the downplaying of Mary even at Xmas time.

There is really nothing new under the sun, just look back to what the House of Israel and House of Judah did in their idolatry, so much so it is recorded in Jeremiah that God divorced the adulterous House of Israel. Jeremiah 3:8-25.

Paul says ICorinthians 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples; and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

We have the script of what would take place again and over and over again the warning is about false prophets drawing the children astray... and no doctrine is left untouched.

[Lauren BaRecall]

Maybe this would be a good devotional, to think about and thank God for the path He decided upon to enter time and become one with His creation by becoming part of it. How intimate is His intimacy with the human race by His conception in the womb of a woman, who was not only His Holy of Holies, but also His dear Mother. How special she must be to Him.

In His conception we see how profoundly He keeps His promises - how truly He is the heir of David’s throne.

All of this, and more, was accomplished because the woman He chose to be the Christ bearer said Yes, I will cooperate with Your plan and Your grace.

We would do well also to contemplate the quiet obedience and faith of Joseph, who believed the angel’s message regarding this unprecedented conception and took Mary into his home.

[Lauren BaRecall]

Thanks for the background info/quotes. A real eye-opener.

Merry Christmas to you!

[Dr. Eckleburg]

Way to make the muzzy's job easier

Rome's the one nuzzling the muzzies...

[Dr. Eckleburg]

Grat thread, Gamecock!

And so we kneel to none but Christ!

[Cronos]

Quite frankly, there is a big difference between a non-Catholic such as yourself (who disagrees with Catholic teachings) and an anti-Catholic whose sole purpose in life is to post threads like this.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

grat

Drat!

GREAT thread.

[Cronos]

You believe the anti-Catholic posters here are Proddy Scum?

The Anti-Catholics are even anti-Protestant. Is there no end to their bigotry and hatred?

That is so true -- on another thread we have the same crew of Calvin-followers who went on to tell LUTHERANS what they believe. Belt stated what he believed and the Calvin-cliche member said "no, this is what you believe"

And another member of the cal-cliche went on to attack Lutherans, Orthodox, Catholics, Anglicans, Orientals etc. as "drinkers of blood", somehow thinking of us all as vampires.

[Cronos]

You may need to explain your post to our friends game, met and rn — the nestorian bit would be confusing to them...

[Cronos]

Caww (a gracious non-Catholic but hardly anti-Catholic like the author of this thread) had raised an interesting point in another thread.

posts. Interesting that during this time of year where we celebrate Christ's birth...the fact the discussions are NOT about Him, rather Mary

--> And it's a very interesting question. Why exactly are some folks (non-Catholics all, like you, G or Rn etc.) so obsessed with this during this time of the year when we celebrate Christ's birth?

[Lauren BaRecall]

It must be all those Madonna and Child Christmas cards floating around. Some people want to make sure Mother Mary is properly minimized for the occasion.