Because of the Protestant Reformers Beliefs On Mary

Back when I first joined YIMCatholic, I was going to write posts about my conversion. I hammered out seven posts in pretty rapid succession and then, I stopped writing them until recently.

Many of my posts now are simply my observations of the world which are colored through the lens of a convert to Catholicism. It would be difficult for them not to be. Other posts I've written are of the "look what I just found!" variety, and the "I want to share this with you" type. Call them the discovery posts if you will.

Recently I gave a talk on the Communion of Saints for my parishes RCIA group. Consequently, I've been answering questions of potential converts that have prompted me to explain my conversion to others.

Basically, this has resulted in my having become a neophyte evangelist of sorts for the Church. And though this blog space isn't the forum for heavy-duty apologetics, because others do that better elsewhere, I have always seen my role here at YIMC as one of evangelizing.

Back to my conversion story, when I was first confronting the idea of becoming a Catholic, I had to look hard at the question "Why am I Protestant?" Having just moved cross-country following my retirement from the Marines, I found out that my mother no longer went to church where we had gone when I was growing up. Instead of the non-denominational church I grew up in (and which we were a founding family of), I learned that she now went to a Presbyterian church instead. Hmmm.

Rather than start visiting all kinds of churches, which appealed to me about as much as shopping for a new car, my family and I kept going to the local Catholic parish in our new town while I did research and home improvement projects. One of the first things I looked into was the problem of Catholics and their obviously misguided devotion to the Virgin Mary.

The funny thing is, I had sat in the pews in the Catholic Church with my wife for close to 18 years and I had never really noticed any wacky or overly zealous devotion to Mary. Not at Mass, anyway, and as we didn't stick around much after the conclusion of Mass, I didn't see anything that made me uncomfortable. Truthfully, I was surprised about this and it's probably a big reason why I continued to sit in the pews with my patient Catholic wife for that long a time.

This didn't stop me from believing that weird Marian devotions were happening though, and I assumed talk of her perpetual virginity was just "crazy talk." Like most, I had no idea what the Immaculate Conception was either and I just thought people were referring to Our Lord's conception. I was ignorant, plain and simple. But I had in mind a mission to correct the wrong religious track that my family was on so I started planning the military campaign to retake the spiritual territory I had ceded to the Church. My first target was what I thought would be the easiest: Mary.

Before I went on my "destroy Marian Devotion" offensive, though, I knew I would have to do a little homework. Planning ahead, you see, I figured the best place to start was with the guys who picked up the Protestant Reformation football and ran with it for touchdowns. Follow the winners Frank, and victory will be yours!

But get this. Much to my surprise, nay, shock(!) I had to throw a penalty flag on myself and look for a different angle of attack. Because what I found out was that the Big Three "Reformers" all agreed with the Catholic Church's teachings on the Mother of God!

Throughout his life Luther maintained without change the historic Christian affirmation that Mary was the Mother of God:

"She is rightly called not only the mother of the man, but also the Mother of God ... It is certain that Mary is the Mother of the real and true God."

Again throughout his life Luther held that Mary's perpetual virginity was an article of faith for all Christians - and interpreted Galatians 4:4 to mean that Christ was "born of a woman" alone.

"It is an article of faith that Mary is Mother of the Lord and still a Virgin."

Yet again the Immaculate Conception was a doctrine Luther defended to his death (as confirmed by Lutheran scholars like Arthur Piepkorn). Like Augustine, Luther saw an unbreakable link between Mary's divine maternity, perpetual virginity and Immaculate Conception. Although his formulation of the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception was not clear-cut, he held that her soul was devoid of sin from the beginning:

"But the other conception, namely the infusion of the soul, it is piously and suitably believed, was without any sin, so that while the soul was being infused, she would at the same time be cleansed from original sin and adorned with the gifts of God to receive the holy soul thus infused. And thus, in the very moment in which she began to live, she was without all sin..."

Although he did not make it an article of faith, Luther said of the doctrine of the Assumption:

"There can be no doubt that the Virgin Mary is in heaven. How it happened we do not know."

Despite his unremitting criticism of the traditional doctrines of Marian mediation and intercession, to the end Luther continued to proclaim that Mary should be honored. He made it a point to preach on her feast days.

"Is Christ only to be adored? Or is the holy Mother of God rather not to be honoured? This is the woman who crushed the Serpent's head. Hear us. For your Son denies you nothing." Luther made this statement in his last sermon at Wittenberg in January 1546.

It has been said that John Calvin belonged to the second generation of the Reformers and certainly his theology of double predestination governed his views on Marian and all other Christian doctrine . Although Calvin was not as profuse in his praise of Mary as Martin Luther he did not deny her perpetual virginity. The term he used most commonly in referring to Mary was "Holy Virgin".

"Elizabeth called Mary Mother of the Lord, because the unity of the person in the two natures of Christ was such that she could have said that the mortal man engendered in the womb of Mary was at the same time the eternal God."

"Helvidius has shown himself too ignorant, in saying that Mary had several sons, because mention is made in some passages of the brothers of Christ." Calvin translated "brothers" in this context to mean cousins or relatives.

"It cannot be denied that God in choosing and destining Mary to be the Mother of his Son, granted her the highest honor."

"To this day we cannot enjoy the blessing brought to us in Christ without thinking at the same time of that which God gave as adornment and honour to Mary, in willing her to be the mother of his only-begotten Son."

"It was given to her what belongs to no creature, that in the flesh she should bring forth the Son of God."

"I firmly believe that Mary, according to the words of the gospel as a pure Virgin brought forth for us the Son of God and in childbirth and after childbirth forever remained a pure, intact Virgin." Zwingli used Exodus 4:22 to defend the doctrine of Mary's perpetual virginity.

"I esteem immensely the Mother of God, the ever chaste, immaculate Virgin Mary."

"The more the honor and love of Christ increases among men, so much the esteem and honor given to Mary should grow."

I remember being blown away by these revelations. I had gone to Christian churches my whole life and I had been told what I was supposed to believe, and I had never been told these things about Mary. I felt a little bit like the fellow wearing tan below, even though I was really acting like the guy wearing black.

And then I thought, "methinks they dost protest too much." And like young Skywalker above, I too leaped with faith and lived to tell the tale. I didn't land on my feet though. Instead, I landed in the lap of Blaise Pascal.

And so began the process of my going back to the Scriptures and to the Church Fathers and back through the history of the Catholic Church, and finally back into the arms of Christ's Church Herself.

To read more about the Protestant Reformers views on the Blessed Virgin Mary, and to track down the footnotes too, head on over to catholicapologetics.info. Head over to Scripture Catholic too, and bring your Bibles. Then head over to the Vatican and look at the Catechism of the Catholic Church as well.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2644744/posts?page=25

“. . . a self-appointed leader of the church in the fifth century, this comes up at that time. There’s a discussion about Mary being assumed into heaven. So already this goddess cult has imposed itself on poor Mary. And it was at first considered heretical. There was no evidence for it historically, there’s no evidence for it biblically, obviously. So the earliest appearance of this idea is in a very apocryphal work, an unreliable work like the gospel of Judas and hundreds of others. It was called Transitus Getti Marii (???) and it was in the fifth century it was denounced as a heresy. So when it first showed up in the fifth century, the 400′s, it is denounced as a heresy. But things began to develop over the years in regard to Mary. Praying to Mary arrives in 600…

‘Mother of God’

MacArthur traces the origins of this title to Alexander, the 4th century Bishop of Alexandria:

Goddess worship, the very outset, the Holy Roman Empire comes into existence in the fourth century, early in the century. This mother of God comes in rapidly by the year 431 and the Council of Ephesus and 451, The Council of Chalcedon, this is established. She is to be called the mother of God, this contributes to centuries and centuries and centuries of accumulated deification of Mary. She becomes equal to God. And though the Church tries its best to wiggle out of this, it tries its best to deny this, the truth of the matter is, she really is superior to God and superior to Christ as becomes very evident in what they say and in how they portray her in cathedrals all over the world. She rules in heaven as queen, sovereign, saving, sanctifying, sympathizing, all this power is given to her that belongs only to God.

A book in 1993 had about a thousand appearances of Mary that were documented thirty times in the eighteenth century, 200 times in the nineteenth century and 450 times in the twentieth century. So they are escalating at a rapid rate. Cardinal Meisner claims that Mary brought Christ to Europe from Fatima and one would ask where was he before that if she brought him? She visited a farm in Georgia, an office building in Clearwater, Florida, and a subway wall recently in Mexico City. She comes so often and she comes to the down and out and she comes to the little children, she comes to the peasant people and this validates the fact that she is this loving, sympathetic, merciful, tender-hearted compassionate person … The only person if there is someone really appearing to them is right out of hell. This is demonic, for sure….for sure. But what assurances and what cleverness the demons offer for the deceived and the damned with their hellish counterfeits.

The point is, you go to Mary because Jesus can’t resist Mary. And Mary, because she’s so merciful, can’t resist you. Mary, claims the Church, can persuade God to grant what He otherwise wouldn’t grant …

You’re really banging on steel if you go to God yourself. Go to Mary and He listens to Mary …

You see, Roman Catholicism is pagan goddess worship, completely distracted. God is reinvented as judgmental, harsh. Christ is reinvented as indifferent. Everybody worships Mary …

John Paul II MacArthur tells us of the importance that Mary played in the late pope’s life from his childhood through to his papacy. He reads the congregation excerpts from some of John Paul II’s Marian thoughts and says:

Now that…that’s a pretty bold statement. She is not only the mediatrix of all grace, the channel through which all grace comes, the one to whom we go for everything, but she is even involved in our redemption …

The Catholic Church as you understand it did NOT write the Scriptures. Lets look at who really did write the books of the Bible.

I know, as well as you do, that the Catholic church did not author the scriptures. While there may have been written copies of the old testament at the time the church was founded....there were certainly no published copies of what is now known as the new testament. The early church compiled these various writings, catalogued they, copied them (by hand) bound them, protected them, brought them before ecumenical councils, verified thier authenticity, and passed them on to you as the new and everlasting testament thet Christ had promised. Of course the various letters were written by thier stated authors, but Paul, James, Thomas, Matthew, Mark, Luke, John et. al. were not publishing companies. They submitted their writings to their leaders (Catholic Church) wwhich recorded them aand saved them for posterity (you) say thanks to the Catholics, if it were left up to the protestants, nothing would have been recorded for 1,500 years and you would know nothing about it.......THERE WERE NO OTHER CHRISTIANS AROUND in early church history.....the Catholic were the only ones and no one can refute that.

To: HossB86; Amityschild; Brad's Gramma; Captain Beyond; Cvengr; DvdMom; firebrand; ...

Quixicated:

To: presently no screen name; BenKenobi

narses provided the smoking gun, Ben. This is quoted from narses’ post:

“Hear all our prayers, O Mother, [Blasphemously usurping God's role]
and grant them all. [Hideously blasphemous God-like powers]
We are all your children: [blasphemously usurping God-like parenthood]
Grant the prayers of [YOUR] children.”[blasphemously usurping God-like prayer-granting powers]

1. “hear all our prayers....” Sounds pretty straightforward to me.

2. “We are all your children: Grant the prayers of your children.”

We are HER children? HER CHILDREN? We are God’s children and His ALONE.

Now... You were saying something about not praying to Mary??
.
Hoss
.
.
You can be sure, there will ALWAYS [Until Jesus returns] be sufficient weasel words in the Vatican DAFFYNITIONARY, for RC's to rationalize the horrific idolatries, blasphemies and heresies in Mary's name.
.
As a psychologist, the level of utter DENIAL involved is rivaled only, in my experience, by decades long addicted alcoholics. Evidently addictionis to idolatry, blasphemy etc. are every bit as demonized and tough to crack.

529 posted on Saturday, December 18, 2010 4:41:20 PM by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)

To: HossB86; Amityschild; Brad's Gramma; Captain Beyond; Cvengr; DvdMom; firebrand; ...

Quixicated:

To: presently no screen name; BenKenobi

narses provided the smoking gun, Ben. This is quoted from narses’ post:

1. “hear all our prayers....” Sounds pretty straightforward to me.

2. “We are all your children: Grant the prayers of your children.”

We are HER children? HER CHILDREN? We are God’s children and His ALONE.

529 posted on Saturday, December 18, 2010 4:41:20 PM by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)

John 19:26 "27Then He said to the disciple, "Behold, your mother!" From that hour the disciple took her into his own household.

Jesus provides for His Mother care, certainly that is what is plainly obvious. The fantasy built around this verse is scary. There is no mention of motherhood to ALL Christians or any other implications other than the obvious provision FOR Her.

The deception can only be effective when scripture is not read, studied and understood.

Neh. 2:6 - the Queen Mother sits beside the King. She is the primary intercessor before the King.

Kings also had court jesters, harems, food tasters, slaves, cooks, midwives, human waste handlers. Should'nt we also see them in heaven as well?

Was Mary on her coffee break in Rev 4 or maybe sitting behind one of 24 elders?

Interesting that we NEVER see Mary mentioned after John 19 anywhere in the rest of the NT, No titles, No prayers to Her, Nothing. Strange, huh?

Her immense importance as Queen of Heaven seems to have escaped notice by every single Apostle and NT writer AND the first 300 years of anyone in the church. Huh, very strange indeed.

I DO WISH TO THANK YOU for your persistent screaming invitations to post such things as this comment below:

FROM

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2644059/posts?page=460#460

To: Jim Noble; Amityschild; Brad's Gramma; Captain Beyond; Cvengr; DvdMom; firebrand; ...

The idea that
the
Vatican Alice In Wonderland School of Theology and Reality Mangling
(otherwise known as the RCC)
comprises
.
CHRIST'S CHURCH UNIVERSAL
.
is
outrageously, pathetically, horrifically
HILARIOUS!
.
At the rate they are going,
They'll do good to have the
Roman Catholic Charismatics
represent them amongst Heaven's numbers.
.
. . . with MAYBE . . .
.
a few other stragglers
.
IN SPITE OF
the Vatican edifice,
.
CERTAINLY NOT BECAUSE OF IT!

465 posted on Saturday, December 18, 2010 3:12:51 PM by Quix

FROM

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2644059/posts?page=460#460

To: P-Marlowe; Amityschild; Brad's Gramma; Captain Beyond; Cvengr; DvdMom; firebrand; ...

Quixicated:

That's it!
Redefine the term
and then you don't have to worry about
committing the sin.
[Until they are standing face to face before
God Almighty!]

Just like "adoration" is not "worship".
[according to the
VAIWSOTARM Daffynitionary]

Under the [Vatican Daffynitionary],
you can't "worship" anything but God Almighty,
[by DAFFYNITION,
RC'S are MAGICALLY INCAPABLE
via the magic White Hankys
of worshiping anyone or anything
but God!
(Ain't Propaganda and Fantasies wonderful!)
All those idols and rituals
are just to throw satan off
--into thinking they are really playing his game,
so they can secretly worship God when no one's looking!],

so no matter
what the level of adoration
for some idol or person,
it does not rise to the level of "worship",
even if
you've never actually worshiped God
a single moment in your life.

462 posted on Saturday, December 18, 2010 3:04:46 PM by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)

FROM

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2644059/posts?page=460#460

To: P-Marlowe; Amityschild; Brad's Gramma; Captain Beyond; Cvengr; DvdMom; firebrand; ...

Quixicated:

That's it!
Redefine the term
and then you don't have to worry about
committing the sin.
[Until they are standing face to face before
God Almighty!]

Just like "adoration" is not "worship".
[according to the
VAIWSOTARM Daffynitionary]

so no matter
what the level of adoration
for some idol or person,
it does not rise to the level of "worship",
even if
you've never actually worshiped God
a single moment in your life.

462 posted on Saturday, December 18, 2010 3:04:46 PM by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)

you say God can do anything.....of course He can, but does He????I don’t think so. Did He have to allow Christ to be crucified.....of course not, any shedding of blood by Christ would have sufficed or for that matter, He could have just declared that man was redeemed....no need for all that crown of thorn thing to tske place at all. But God is a jealous God....He is so almighty that only the sacrifice of His begotten Son would appease for the salvation of mankind. Could God have planted the embryo of Jesus in a stained, faulty, sinful container.....I guess He could have, but why would He have insulted His son by doing so when it was very easy for Him to create a PERFECT container. There are those who claim that God created a bunch of relics, old rocks, bones...etc in order to make the earth seem older than it really is........do you think that the creator of the univeerse has nothing better to do than to try to fool you with immaculate conceptions, assumptions and the like?????must make you feel very important

To: HossB86; Amityschild; Brad's Gramma; Captain Beyond; Cvengr; DvdMom; firebrand; ...

Quixicated:

To: presently no screen name; BenKenobi

narses provided the smoking gun, Ben. This is quoted from narses’ post:

1. “hear all our prayers....” Sounds pretty straightforward to me.

2. “We are all your children: Grant the prayers of your children.”

We are HER children? HER CHILDREN? We are God’s children and His ALONE.

529 posted on Saturday, December 18, 2010 4:41:20 PM by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)

Well I will rejoice with you for Him leading you back to Himself..what freedom you must know!

Amazing freedom! But it was very easy for me. I received a call from a long time friend who told me The Truth compared to what we both grew up with - some of their major doctrines. Immediately, when I was told the Truth, I knew it was Truth. I picked up the phone as a Catholic and hung it up being a believer on HIM alone! We went to my friend's church, quite a distance from us, the following Sunday because I didn't know what kind of church to even look for. Spending a year there, I then found one closer to me after many many searches.

Today she is witnessing to a beloved Jewish friend of hers

So did I! It was, also, amazing how I found him - all The Lord's doing. We both acknowledged that. Sadly, he died on Oct. 2nd of this year. What if he didn't hear? No one told him The Truth. He did know God but didn't follow any teachings after his mom died many years ago.

Yesterday, I met another Jewish person, more of a business acquaintance from years ago. I prayed over her for her health problems and she was a bit shocked, then hugged me and said I have a good attitude. :) - I don't think she knew what to make out of it. Moreso, because she was giving me the rundown on all her doctors reports, etc. - like that is etched in stone! LOL!

She is quite a bit older than me and very set in her Jewish beliefs but not her husband so much. My dearly departed Jewish friend was searching - but didn't know for what. So it was a bit easier. .his understanding of what a Christian is comes from the catholics he has known.. Same for my friend, he was married to one and all her siblings and their spouses are Catholic. He didn't get it at first, the difference between Christian and Catholic - I think because of the only common thread - Jesus.

He learned the differences quickly. Being married to a Catholic and her family and no one cared about his soul. I met his wife at the funeral, I touched on a few things about my many conversations w/her husband about Jesus! I called a week later to find out how she was doing and she immediately told me about a minister she got from the resources at the funeral home for the evening funeral service and she attended his church the following Sunday. She didn't want a priest there because her husband was Jewish but... why didn't she get a rabbi? LOL! I didn't ask her because I know God works in mysterious ways. She told her sisters about his church. He brought much comfort to her she said. But it was really The Truth being spoken that gave her the comfort.

>>THERE WERE NO OTHER CHRISTIANS AROUND in early church history.....the Catholic were the only ones and no one can refute that.<<

Whether a church is the “true church” or not is determined by comparing its teachings and practices to that of the New Testament church, as recorded in Scripture.

For instance, in Acts 20:17-38, the Apostle Paul has an opportunity to talk to the church leaders in the large city of Ephesus one last time face to face. In that passage, he tells them that false teachers will not only come among them but will come FROM them (vv. 29-30). Paul does not set forth the teaching that they were to follow the “first” organized church as a safeguard for the truth. Rather, he commits them to the safekeeping of “God and to the word of His grace” (v. 32). Thus, truth could be determined by depending upon God and “the word of His grace” (i.e., Scripture, see John 10:35).

This dependence upon the Word of God, rather than following certain individual “founders” is seen again in Galatians 1:8-9, in which Paul states, “But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed.” Thus, the basis for determining truth from error is not based upon even WHO it is that is teaching it, “we or an angel from heaven,” but whether it is the same gospel that they had already received – and this gospel is recorded in Scripture.

How do we determine whether a church is teaching correct doctrine or not? The only infallible standard that Scripture says that we have is the Bible (Isaiah 8:20; 2 Timothy 3:15-17; Matthew 5:18; John 10:35; Isaiah 40:8; 1 Peter 2:25; Galatians 1:6-9). Tradition is a part of every church, and that tradition must be compared to God’s Word, lest it go against what is true (Mark 7:1-13). It is true that the cults and sometimes orthodox churches twist the interpretation of Scripture to support their practices; nonetheless, Scripture, when taken in context and faithfully studied, is able to guide one to the truth.

The “first church” is the church that is recorded in the New Testament, especially in the Book of Acts and the Epistles of Paul. The New Testament church is the “original church” and the “one true church.” We can know this because it is described, in great detail, in Scripture. The church, as recorded in the New Testament, is God’s pattern and foundation for His church. On this basis, let’s examine the Roman Catholic claim that it is the “first church.” Nowhere in the New Testament will you find the “one true church” doing any of the following: praying to Mary, praying to the saints, venerating Mary, submitting to a pope, having a select priesthood, baptizing an infant, observing the ordinances of baptism and the Lord’s Supper as sacraments, or passing on apostolic authority to successors of the apostles. All of these are core elements of the Roman Catholic faith. If most of the core elements of the Roman Catholic Church were not practiced by the New Testament Church (the first church and one true church), how then can the Roman Catholic Church be the first church? A study of the New Testament will clearly reveal that the Roman Catholic Church is not the same church as the church that is described in the New Testament.

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