Posted on 12/17/2010 7:31:07 AM PST by marshmallow
Back when I first joined YIMCatholic, I was going to write posts about my conversion. I hammered out seven posts in pretty rapid succession and then, I stopped writing them until recently.
Many of my posts now are simply my observations of the world which are colored through the lens of a convert to Catholicism. It would be difficult for them not to be. Other posts I've written are of the "look what I just found!" variety, and the "I want to share this with you" type. Call them the discovery posts if you will.
Recently I gave a talk on the Communion of Saints for my parishes RCIA group. Consequently, I've been answering questions of potential converts that have prompted me to explain my conversion to others.
Basically, this has resulted in my having become a neophyte evangelist of sorts for the Church. And though this blog space isn't the forum for heavy-duty apologetics, because others do that better elsewhere, I have always seen my role here at YIMC as one of evangelizing.
Back to my conversion story, when I was first confronting the idea of becoming a Catholic, I had to look hard at the question "Why am I Protestant?" Having just moved cross-country following my retirement from the Marines, I found out that my mother no longer went to church where we had gone when I was growing up. Instead of the non-denominational church I grew up in (and which we were a founding family of), I learned that she now went to a Presbyterian church instead. Hmmm.
Rather than start visiting all kinds of churches, which appealed to me about as much as shopping for a new car, my family and I kept going to the local Catholic parish in our new town while I did research and home improvement projects. One of the first things I looked into was the problem of Catholics and their obviously misguided devotion to the Virgin Mary.
The funny thing is, I had sat in the pews in the Catholic Church with my wife for close to 18 years and I had never really noticed any wacky or overly zealous devotion to Mary. Not at Mass, anyway, and as we didn't stick around much after the conclusion of Mass, I didn't see anything that made me uncomfortable. Truthfully, I was surprised about this and it's probably a big reason why I continued to sit in the pews with my patient Catholic wife for that long a time.
This didn't stop me from believing that weird Marian devotions were happening though, and I assumed talk of her perpetual virginity was just "crazy talk." Like most, I had no idea what the Immaculate Conception was either and I just thought people were referring to Our Lord's conception. I was ignorant, plain and simple. But I had in mind a mission to correct the wrong religious track that my family was on so I started planning the military campaign to retake the spiritual territory I had ceded to the Church. My first target was what I thought would be the easiest: Mary.
Before I went on my "destroy Marian Devotion" offensive, though, I knew I would have to do a little homework. Planning ahead, you see, I figured the best place to start was with the guys who picked up the Protestant Reformation football and ran with it for touchdowns. Follow the winners Frank, and victory will be yours!
But get this. Much to my surprise, nay, shock(!) I had to throw a penalty flag on myself and look for a different angle of attack. Because what I found out was that the Big Three "Reformers" all agreed with the Catholic Church's teachings on the Mother of God!
Here is what I found, courtesy of the site catholicapologetics.info,
Martin Luther:
Mary the Mother of God
Throughout his life Luther maintained without change the historic Christian affirmation that Mary was the Mother of God:
"She is rightly called not only the mother of the man, but also the Mother of God ... It is certain that Mary is the Mother of the real and true God."
Perpetual Virginity
Again throughout his life Luther held that Mary's perpetual virginity was an article of faith for all Christians - and interpreted Galatians 4:4 to mean that Christ was "born of a woman" alone.
"It is an article of faith that Mary is Mother of the Lord and still a Virgin."
The Immaculate Conception
Yet again the Immaculate Conception was a doctrine Luther defended to his death (as confirmed by Lutheran scholars like Arthur Piepkorn). Like Augustine, Luther saw an unbreakable link between Mary's divine maternity, perpetual virginity and Immaculate Conception. Although his formulation of the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception was not clear-cut, he held that her soul was devoid of sin from the beginning:
"But the other conception, namely the infusion of the soul, it is piously and suitably believed, was without any sin, so that while the soul was being infused, she would at the same time be cleansed from original sin and adorned with the gifts of God to receive the holy soul thus infused. And thus, in the very moment in which she began to live, she was without all sin..."
Assumption
Although he did not make it an article of faith, Luther said of the doctrine of the Assumption:
"There can be no doubt that the Virgin Mary is in heaven. How it happened we do not know."
Honor to Mary
Despite his unremitting criticism of the traditional doctrines of Marian mediation and intercession, to the end Luther continued to proclaim that Mary should be honored. He made it a point to preach on her feast days.
"The veneration of Mary is inscribed in the very depths of the human heart."
"Is Christ only to be adored? Or is the holy Mother of God rather not to be honoured? This is the woman who crushed the Serpent's head. Hear us. For your Son denies you nothing." Luther made this statement in his last sermon at Wittenberg in January 1546.
John Calvin:
It has been said that John Calvin belonged to the second generation of the Reformers and certainly his theology of double predestination governed his views on Marian and all other Christian doctrine . Although Calvin was not as profuse in his praise of Mary as Martin Luther he did not deny her perpetual virginity. The term he used most commonly in referring to Mary was "Holy Virgin".
"Elizabeth called Mary Mother of the Lord, because the unity of the person in the two natures of Christ was such that she could have said that the mortal man engendered in the womb of Mary was at the same time the eternal God."
"Helvidius has shown himself too ignorant, in saying that Mary had several sons, because mention is made in some passages of the brothers of Christ." Calvin translated "brothers" in this context to mean cousins or relatives.
"It cannot be denied that God in choosing and destining Mary to be the Mother of his Son, granted her the highest honor."
"To this day we cannot enjoy the blessing brought to us in Christ without thinking at the same time of that which God gave as adornment and honour to Mary, in willing her to be the mother of his only-begotten Son."
Ulrich Zwingli:
"It was given to her what belongs to no creature, that in the flesh she should bring forth the Son of God."
"I firmly believe that Mary, according to the words of the gospel as a pure Virgin brought forth for us the Son of God and in childbirth and after childbirth forever remained a pure, intact Virgin." Zwingli used Exodus 4:22 to defend the doctrine of Mary's perpetual virginity.
"I esteem immensely the Mother of God, the ever chaste, immaculate Virgin Mary."
"Christ ... was born of a most undefiled Virgin."
"It was fitting that such a holy Son should have a holy Mother."
"The more the honor and love of Christ increases among men, so much the esteem and honor given to Mary should grow."
I remember being blown away by these revelations. I had gone to Christian churches my whole life and I had been told what I was supposed to believe, and I had never been told these things about Mary. I felt a little bit like the fellow wearing tan below, even though I was really acting like the guy wearing black.
And then I thought, "methinks they dost protest too much." And like young Skywalker above, I too leaped with faith and lived to tell the tale. I didn't land on my feet though. Instead, I landed in the lap of Blaise Pascal.
And so began the process of my going back to the Scriptures and to the Church Fathers and back through the history of the Catholic Church, and finally back into the arms of Christ's Church Herself.
Perhaps this post is a prequel in the 2BFrank saga. Sheeeesh!
To read more about the Protestant Reformers views on the Blessed Virgin Mary, and to track down the footnotes too, head on over to catholicapologetics.info. Head over to Scripture Catholic too, and bring your Bibles. Then head over to the Vatican and look at the Catechism of the Catholic Church as well.
Do you know what that is called, or if there are still copies to be read? Any recent translations? I ask because I’m curious.
Interesting that the Lord gave Mary's care, not to His own family members but to one of His diciples. Evidences as well that Mary needed the protection and care. If she was as powerful as is spoken of her now she is departed then I would assume she could have been powerful enough to take care of herself then. Obvious Jesus recognized clearly she had no power and put her in the care of one He trusted would do so.
With errors in who Mary is, you’ll often find errors in who Christ is. The two tend to go together - which is why the Council that decreed Mary as Theotokos was all about Christology. Recall that, even using the same scripture, the Trinity was argued for centuries.
It continues today. Those who have a problem with Mary often exhibit heresy in their view of the Trinity: Nestorianism, etc.
If you don’t understand Mary, you don’t understand the Incarnation, and without that theology concerning Christ and the Holy Trinity is very often flawed.
Which Church was it during the First Council of Nicaea (325), First Council of Constantinople (381), First Council of Ephesus (431), Council of Chalcedon (451)…, etc. ?
Mary......
I recently attended a funeral at a Roman Catholic house of worship and a couple of things, well really a lot of things, jumped out at me.
The oddest thing I witnessed occurred during the singing of the Ava Maria. A group of mourners placed flowers at the feet of a life sized statue of Mary. Pure idol worship, don’t care what the FRoman Catholics call it.
“Wherever the Roman Catholic Church got to in Europe, there were already Christians there when the Vaticanist missionaries arrived. The means was stated in my original post.”
History states clearly otherwise. The Romans in Britain considered themselves just that, Roman. As did the Romans in all the other places.
You are drawing a distinction where none exists, between the missionaries of the Church and between the Catholic church.
“Roman Catholic Church definitely is not, never was, and never shall be, although it misrepresents itself to be something akin to the kingdom of heaven-—so it has a king (pope) and its own city state, and has ruled and ruined kings for centuries.”
Does no such thing. You do know that the city states around Rome have been governed by the bishop of Rome, at least going back to the collapse of the Western Emperor. This is close to 1600 years. Far longer than any other Western government including that of France.
’ “Biblicist” simply means having a faith based on the Bible.’
That is what you say it means. It has absolutely no relevance to the period, and is ahistorical rubbish. Did the Christians of the time call themselves ‘biblicists?’ No. So there is no need to insert our own term to refer to them when they had names for themselves that we ought to use instead.
Names like the Catholic church.
“Because there have always been, since the Apostles’ ministries, true Christians which based their faith on the Scriptures”
Really. You ARE aware that the scriptures that you have today were first published by the Pope in the Vatican who decided what books should be used, books you don’t even use and that you refer to as ‘biblicist’, when you tear such books out of the bible?
Complete and utter hogwash. They referred to themselves by the Creeds when they were declared, and as Catholics and Christians.
“Vaticanism has always been forced to use the Bible (almost always messing it up, of course), to try to make people think it is legitimate, which it is not. It is an impostor, a mere caricature, a religious buffoon.”
Well considering as they wrote and put the blasted thing together, I should think they would use it.
The Universal Church!
Judith,
I didnt see any slander of the RCC on here. The argument revolves around the theology of the RCC. One of the major arguments is the importance of Mary, in relation to scripture and her elevation and ability to intercede to the Lord on a sinners behalf. Catholics seem to want it both ways, they claim that they dont “worship” Mary, but why then are their statues of her outside of RC Churches, why the shrines to her in the yards of many RC homes, and why the prayers directed to her in the rosary?
Which is why she lived in the care of his ‘brothers’? ;)
Of course she needed care. She would have been an aged widow at that point in time, and I don’t know about you but families looked after each other back then.
Why are there statues of her?
Are there statues of just her? No. Are there statues of Christ and other saints? Yes.
The statues are there for the same reason why any statue is built, to honour and commemorate her.
Now, again, do you believe it is right and proper to have statues of Christ?
“That means that she and Christ were both qualified to save people from their sins. Cough, cough.”
Oh, really? Is that why Christ is both fully God and fully Man? Why is this crucial to the atonement that he is both of these things?
The passover lamb without blemish requires that Christ be both man AND God in order to serve as the substitutionary sacrifice. Mary is not God so she cannot qualify.
Well then, point out where I’m in error, and we can proceed.
So you believe it’s wrong to have a statue in honour of Christ?
Thank you. Finally, someone comes out and says this.
The problem for you, is that the Church already settled this matter, in the 7th Century. Icons are permissible.
that's because so many of them are now the YOPIOS crowd of their own peculiar sort, another sect broken off from old Rome, in the millions and growing.
Check post 397; alternatively, read the thread.
Regarding the Rosary, do you know what it is?
Which is btw, what 1 Cor 3:13-7 says, that we will receive our reward if our works stand. Reward in heaven. Go read it yourself. It’s all there.
That does not make sense.
You say that as if that were something significant.
People have always been breaking off spitting off, forming their own churches. What’s so special about this one?
I went into one once where apparently she was the Christmas tree, all the gifts were laid at the feet of this montrous idol, about 3 times the size of a human, in the lobby.
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