Posted on 12/17/2010 7:31:07 AM PST by marshmallow
Back when I first joined YIMCatholic, I was going to write posts about my conversion. I hammered out seven posts in pretty rapid succession and then, I stopped writing them until recently.
Many of my posts now are simply my observations of the world which are colored through the lens of a convert to Catholicism. It would be difficult for them not to be. Other posts I've written are of the "look what I just found!" variety, and the "I want to share this with you" type. Call them the discovery posts if you will.
Recently I gave a talk on the Communion of Saints for my parishes RCIA group. Consequently, I've been answering questions of potential converts that have prompted me to explain my conversion to others.
Basically, this has resulted in my having become a neophyte evangelist of sorts for the Church. And though this blog space isn't the forum for heavy-duty apologetics, because others do that better elsewhere, I have always seen my role here at YIMC as one of evangelizing.
Back to my conversion story, when I was first confronting the idea of becoming a Catholic, I had to look hard at the question "Why am I Protestant?" Having just moved cross-country following my retirement from the Marines, I found out that my mother no longer went to church where we had gone when I was growing up. Instead of the non-denominational church I grew up in (and which we were a founding family of), I learned that she now went to a Presbyterian church instead. Hmmm.
Rather than start visiting all kinds of churches, which appealed to me about as much as shopping for a new car, my family and I kept going to the local Catholic parish in our new town while I did research and home improvement projects. One of the first things I looked into was the problem of Catholics and their obviously misguided devotion to the Virgin Mary.
The funny thing is, I had sat in the pews in the Catholic Church with my wife for close to 18 years and I had never really noticed any wacky or overly zealous devotion to Mary. Not at Mass, anyway, and as we didn't stick around much after the conclusion of Mass, I didn't see anything that made me uncomfortable. Truthfully, I was surprised about this and it's probably a big reason why I continued to sit in the pews with my patient Catholic wife for that long a time.
This didn't stop me from believing that weird Marian devotions were happening though, and I assumed talk of her perpetual virginity was just "crazy talk." Like most, I had no idea what the Immaculate Conception was either and I just thought people were referring to Our Lord's conception. I was ignorant, plain and simple. But I had in mind a mission to correct the wrong religious track that my family was on so I started planning the military campaign to retake the spiritual territory I had ceded to the Church. My first target was what I thought would be the easiest: Mary.
Before I went on my "destroy Marian Devotion" offensive, though, I knew I would have to do a little homework. Planning ahead, you see, I figured the best place to start was with the guys who picked up the Protestant Reformation football and ran with it for touchdowns. Follow the winners Frank, and victory will be yours!
But get this. Much to my surprise, nay, shock(!) I had to throw a penalty flag on myself and look for a different angle of attack. Because what I found out was that the Big Three "Reformers" all agreed with the Catholic Church's teachings on the Mother of God!
Here is what I found, courtesy of the site catholicapologetics.info,
Martin Luther:
Mary the Mother of God
Throughout his life Luther maintained without change the historic Christian affirmation that Mary was the Mother of God:
"She is rightly called not only the mother of the man, but also the Mother of God ... It is certain that Mary is the Mother of the real and true God."
Perpetual Virginity
Again throughout his life Luther held that Mary's perpetual virginity was an article of faith for all Christians - and interpreted Galatians 4:4 to mean that Christ was "born of a woman" alone.
"It is an article of faith that Mary is Mother of the Lord and still a Virgin."
The Immaculate Conception
Yet again the Immaculate Conception was a doctrine Luther defended to his death (as confirmed by Lutheran scholars like Arthur Piepkorn). Like Augustine, Luther saw an unbreakable link between Mary's divine maternity, perpetual virginity and Immaculate Conception. Although his formulation of the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception was not clear-cut, he held that her soul was devoid of sin from the beginning:
"But the other conception, namely the infusion of the soul, it is piously and suitably believed, was without any sin, so that while the soul was being infused, she would at the same time be cleansed from original sin and adorned with the gifts of God to receive the holy soul thus infused. And thus, in the very moment in which she began to live, she was without all sin..."
Assumption
Although he did not make it an article of faith, Luther said of the doctrine of the Assumption:
"There can be no doubt that the Virgin Mary is in heaven. How it happened we do not know."
Honor to Mary
Despite his unremitting criticism of the traditional doctrines of Marian mediation and intercession, to the end Luther continued to proclaim that Mary should be honored. He made it a point to preach on her feast days.
"The veneration of Mary is inscribed in the very depths of the human heart."
"Is Christ only to be adored? Or is the holy Mother of God rather not to be honoured? This is the woman who crushed the Serpent's head. Hear us. For your Son denies you nothing." Luther made this statement in his last sermon at Wittenberg in January 1546.
John Calvin:
It has been said that John Calvin belonged to the second generation of the Reformers and certainly his theology of double predestination governed his views on Marian and all other Christian doctrine . Although Calvin was not as profuse in his praise of Mary as Martin Luther he did not deny her perpetual virginity. The term he used most commonly in referring to Mary was "Holy Virgin".
"Elizabeth called Mary Mother of the Lord, because the unity of the person in the two natures of Christ was such that she could have said that the mortal man engendered in the womb of Mary was at the same time the eternal God."
"Helvidius has shown himself too ignorant, in saying that Mary had several sons, because mention is made in some passages of the brothers of Christ." Calvin translated "brothers" in this context to mean cousins or relatives.
"It cannot be denied that God in choosing and destining Mary to be the Mother of his Son, granted her the highest honor."
"To this day we cannot enjoy the blessing brought to us in Christ without thinking at the same time of that which God gave as adornment and honour to Mary, in willing her to be the mother of his only-begotten Son."
Ulrich Zwingli:
"It was given to her what belongs to no creature, that in the flesh she should bring forth the Son of God."
"I firmly believe that Mary, according to the words of the gospel as a pure Virgin brought forth for us the Son of God and in childbirth and after childbirth forever remained a pure, intact Virgin." Zwingli used Exodus 4:22 to defend the doctrine of Mary's perpetual virginity.
"I esteem immensely the Mother of God, the ever chaste, immaculate Virgin Mary."
"Christ ... was born of a most undefiled Virgin."
"It was fitting that such a holy Son should have a holy Mother."
"The more the honor and love of Christ increases among men, so much the esteem and honor given to Mary should grow."
I remember being blown away by these revelations. I had gone to Christian churches my whole life and I had been told what I was supposed to believe, and I had never been told these things about Mary. I felt a little bit like the fellow wearing tan below, even though I was really acting like the guy wearing black.
And then I thought, "methinks they dost protest too much." And like young Skywalker above, I too leaped with faith and lived to tell the tale. I didn't land on my feet though. Instead, I landed in the lap of Blaise Pascal.
And so began the process of my going back to the Scriptures and to the Church Fathers and back through the history of the Catholic Church, and finally back into the arms of Christ's Church Herself.
Perhaps this post is a prequel in the 2BFrank saga. Sheeeesh!
To read more about the Protestant Reformers views on the Blessed Virgin Mary, and to track down the footnotes too, head on over to catholicapologetics.info. Head over to Scripture Catholic too, and bring your Bibles. Then head over to the Vatican and look at the Catechism of the Catholic Church as well.
No sacrifice or penance on our part can remove our sins or make us more holy. Jesus has done everything. His perfect life fulfilled God’s law in our place. His death paid the price for sin’s penalty. He sent his own Spirit to baptize us into his family and dress us up for eternity. All of the riches of God’s free grace and salvation are given freely to the soul who clings to Jesus in simple trust!
The bridge works both ways.
Christ is fully God and fully Man. When you are drowning, you need someone with their feet firmly on the other bank. You need God.
Christ before the incarnation was fully God, but he needed to become Fully Man, the same as Adam. Hence the miracle of the incarnation, where he became exactly this, the new Adam.
This is why it couldn’t be Mary, because Mary is not God.
“Why couldn’t God preserve himself from sin by being born of Mary.”
He could have taken on the likeness of Man, but it wouldn’t be the same thing. He had to take the flesh and be reformed of the flesh while he is in his mother’s womb. This means he no longer has control over the process once it’s started.
As I said, you submit to yourself.
I've been working on this problem for 20 years, so a quick reply is not necessary. Just think about what you are really saying here.
” This means he no longer has control over the process once it’s started.”
Sad. It’s very sad that you don’t believe in an all-powerful, sovereign, omnipotent God. Ben, God was, is, and never will be “out of control” over anything. He can do anything. Including being born of a virgin—a frail, human, sinful person just as in need of salvation as you or I.
Hoss
>> You’ve just denied that Christ was sinless.<<
No, I didn’t say that. I said “He carried our sin” by being born of Mary. Yet He remained sinless.
1 Peter 2:24 and He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, so that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed.
Actually, Ben, Cynical did not deny Christ’s sinlessness; you’re putting words in mouths. Please read more closely.
Hoss
“No one knows the hour or the day, except for the Father.”
Yeah, I believe that God is omnipotent. I also believe he can freely choose to set aside that omnipotence. Christ chose to submit to death on the cross. Chose to submit to the indignities he suffered, chose to set down control to redeem man.
You did deny that Christ was sinless, because you said he was tainted by original sin.
No, how can he be sinless if he’s tainted with original sin.
Original sin, means that he has sin in him, and that’s wrong.
Christ was sinless and free of original sin. This is basic Christology. Really basic stuff.
With God Almighty. In his presence. The New Heavens and New Earth will be real too.
Read your Bible. Remember, “for today you will be with me in Paradise”? Was Jesus lying? How about taking HIS word for it? Isn’t God’s word sufficient?
Hoss
Please quote me where I said ANY such thing!!! Now you’re stretching; be careful, now. Show me my WORDS.
Hoss
I think you’re mixing up who said what!
Hoss
It's there...Head out towards the North Star...Keep going til you get to the 3rd heaven...But watch out for the Dragons as you pass thru the sea...
It doesn't say that in the scripture that I read...
1Co 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
It says 'saved; yet so as by fire'...Not even saved by fire but saved as by fire...
The works get burned, not the man...No purgatory...
Does scripture cite a duration for purgatory? What sense does a ‘day’ mean in heaven?
NIV has it as:
“If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.”
There are no manuscripts to back up the NIV...The NIV is a commentary on the bible...
First you accuse me of getting Cynical Bear’s statement wrong then you.
From what I can see, you are both making a distinction between original sin and sins committed. Apparently your definition of ‘sinless’ means that you can have original sin. Which is wrong.
Sinless means just that free from sins committed and free from original sin.
You have two choices. One denying that Christ was sinless or, accepting that Christ made Mary sinless. Those are the only choices. One is wrong because Christ was sinless. I suppose you could argue that Christ really wasn’t born of Mary, but that runs into other problems.
BTW, I raise this issue because Menno Simons struggled with it himself. His answer was to deny that Christ was born of Mary, because if Mary was a sinner than so was Christ. He understood why Mary had to be sinless, but rather than acknowledge that the Church was right, he chose to deny one of the core teachings of Christianity.
I know this is a tough question, this is one that took me about a year to work on. I’m telling you, the only way that works is if Mary is sinless.
Fine, argue that with the other Prots.
YET AGAIN
WHAT THOROUGHLY WRONG assertions.
Of course Christ became flesh . . . and in Mary’s womb.
As He would have if God had raised up a rock to be a virgin descendant of David.
CHRIST ALONE CONQUERED DEATH, HELL AND THE GRAVE. Mary’s job was long past.
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