Was Mary Sinless?

The Aristophrenium ^ | 12/05/2010 | " Fisher"

[freedumb2003]

>>By making offerings to idols, you’re doing no better than if you sacrifice a goat for zeus.<<
To say the least that is a limited perspective. To say the most it is just downright elitist.

God sees into men’s hearts and sees the person who is offering and why. I suspect He isn’t all that pleased with the racism and elitism in yours at this moment.

But that is between He and you.

But I will say a prayer for you tonight that you may learn a bit of tolerance for those whom you cannot understand.

[Grizzled Bear]

Wow -- that had to really suck. I am not a big pizza guy but it is nice to get one when the I feel the craving.

Even though AAFES has concessions on many of the bases in the theaters of operations, the Pizza Hut and definitely the Burger King are nothing like state side.

You really learn to appreciate what you have in the CONUS. I really chowed down on some pizza when I got home from the last deployment.

Incidently, other than Mrs Bear's German cooking and my own grilling, I'm more of an Arby's kinda guy.

[metmom]

Exodus 20:4-6

4 “You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. 5 You shall not bow down to them or serve them, for I the LORD your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me, 6but showing steadfast love to thousands of those who love me and keep my commandments.

Exodus 34: 11”Observe what I command you this day. Behold, I will drive out before you the Amorites, the Canaanites, the Hittites, the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites. 12 Take care, lest you make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land to which you go, lest it become a snare in your midst. 13You shall tear down their altars and break their pillars and cut down their Asherim 14(for you shall worship no other god, for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God), 15 lest you make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land, and when they whore after their gods and sacrifice to their gods and you are invited, you eat of his sacrifice, 16and you take of their daughters for your sons, and their daughters whore after their gods and make your sons whore after their gods.

17 “You shall not make for yourself any gods of cast metal.

[Grizzled Bear]

God sees into men’s hearts and sees the person who is offering and why. I suspect He isn’t all that pleased with the racism and elitism in yours at this moment.

The funny thing is, my family includes Mexicans, Blacks, Polish, Irish, American Indian...you name it. I don't look at race or the color of skin. I look at the individuals' behavior and content of character. You tried to pull the "Sharpton" accusations on an earlier post and I ignored it. Now, you've made it clear. You accuse others of doing what you do.

You're right about one thing; God sees into souls. Rather than trying to manipulate others, you should pay more attention to what he sees in yours.

[Grizzled Bear]

Easy there Metmom, you might offend freedumb2003's progressive sensibilities.

He called me a racist because I reject idol worship.

Freedumb, do you find Exodus 34:11-17 offensive? Should the Israelites disobeyed God and embraced the pagan ways of the Amorites, the Canaanites, the Hittites, the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites?

Catch a clue buddy. Race doesn't matter. By the way, do you have one of those clever little "coexist" stickers on your car?

[Quix]

THX.

If I’d had money, I’d have gone for implants. Wasn’t an option.

We do what we can with what we have.

I don’t regret giving most of my substance away to students on the mission field.

[Grizzled Bear]

If I’d had money, I’d have gone for implants. Wasn’t an option.

Please tell me you're still talking about teeth...

[lastchance]

It will come back to you a thousand fold. For though we disagree on many points of doctrine I have no doubt that those missions bore good fruit.

[Quix]

Hmmmmmmmmmmmm

cleaning up my minimized windows . . . it appears I didn’t post this earlier after writing it . . .

---

imho,

The early Christian writers

could not

UNANIMOUSLY AGREE

that the sun comes up in the morning,

much less

any dubious Christian dogma.

What nonsense that the

bureaucratic political powermongering magicsterical theological elites coming 400 years later

could rationally have the audacity to claim that the early Christian writers

unanimously agreed on

THEIR magicsterically convoluted mishmash of

STILL not the least consistent and homogeneous body of even Scriptural commentary.

Where do such . . . characters . . . get off claiming unanimous anything?

They STILL aren’t unanimous . . .

About the closest they get to being unanimously agreeing about anything is the horrific pile of Maryolatry they seem to mostly agree with . . . on alternate days.

Sheesh.

[Grizzled Bear]

I’m still really concerned about your “implants” post...

;-)

[Quix]

PRAISE GOD FOR THAT.

and thanks for your kind words.

He did enable me to love a couple thousand+ Chinese students very convincingly in His Name . . .

many saying I loved them more than their parents did—which—for a Chinese is an incredible statement.

PRAISE GOD FOR HIS FAITHFULNESS.

[Quix]

implants for teeth?

or by the critters in their abductees.

Sorry, I’ve lost track.

winding down toward shower here.

[Grizzled Bear]

I’ve spent too much time in the world. Whenever I see the word “implants,” I think of two things...

[Quix]

Goodness!

I didn’t think even in that direction! LOL.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

Presently no screen name is correct. Jesus is the rock. He has been the rock from before the foundation of the world.

RELIGION FORUM RESEARCH PROJECT: GOD IS THE ROCK

There is Biblical support for the line of succession from Peter to the modern day Pope.

Where would that be?

[daniel1212]

	Well, i stopped after 237 posts were made in about 2 hours. I would not consider the posted subject to really be a matter of salvation, but behind it is the foundational issue of authority, that of the only objective source which is affirmed to be wholly inspired by God, (2Tim. 3:16) separated from the rest of tradition which class it is part of, versus an assuredly infallible magisterium (AIM), it being infallible whenever it speaks in accordance with its infallibly declared formula. Scripture has been employed here by Catholics, but their use of it cannot infer they see it as the means of ascertaining truth, as certainty can only come by implicit trust in the AIM, and by which a superior unity is claimed. That all being another debate, I went through and selected a representative sample from each side out of the many posts i saw, which i will try to place side by side with my brief comments. This also provides some idea of how different poster respond. Some simply reiterate the claims of their faith, or unsubstantiated views, or sometimes with a slew of links, while others provide some Scripture texts, and perhaps ancient testimony, with varying degrees of reasoning and responses, and some respond with indignation, immediately or after some of the preceding.
	Roman Catholic	Protestant	Comment
1	Luke 1:48 “Because He hath regarded the humility of His Handmaid; for behold from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.” being full of grace allows no room for sin.	Mary herself offered a guilt offering to the priest. Christs line goes through Rahab The OT is all about CHRIST, not His mother..the ark was a type of CHRIST.	From what i see only Jn. 1:14 states that Jesus was “full [plērēs, which is used 17 times, all denoting “full”] of grace [charis=grace] The key phrase in Lk. 1:28 simply says “Hail [chairō=rejoice, greeting, etc.] grace [chairō, denoting to be graced, favored, enriched with grace as in Eph.1:6) Robertson’s states that, Vulgate gratiae plena “is right, if it means ‘full of grace which thou hast received’; wrong, if it means ‘full of grace which thou hast to bestow’” (Plummer). As for the underlying argument, see further below.
2	Mary was preserved from the stain of original sin by the merits of Jesus Christ. He saved her.	"All have sinned and fall short of the Glory of God"	It is true that “all” is not always inclusive, but many texts state that all men are sinners, and this the Holy Spirit is faithful to state more than once that Jesus did not sin. (Jn. 8:46; 2Cor. 5:21; 1Pt. 2:220
3	Mary was the Ark of the New Covenant -- carrying Christ within her womb. Of course, she was pure and sinless.	Using that logic, it would be logical to conclude that Mary's mother was sinless as well. We couldn't have the sinless "Ark of the Covenant" be carried in the womb of a sinful human, could we?	While the typology in this case might be permissible, though it is not mentioned (neither is Joseph in the O.T. as a type of Christ), the logic behind it limits God (below).
4	He needed a sinless vessel to bring the Savior	In Luke 2:47 Mary says “And my Spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.”	The foundational logic necessitating a sinless vessel is not valid. If the God-breathed word of God came through sinners, then the word made flesh certainty can as well.
5	It is commonly understood that the Holy Spirit does not fill those who are still in a state of original sin. . If it is granted that John the Baptist was freed from original sin before birth, it does not follow that he was immaculate, as was the Blessed Virgin Mary. This is firstly because he may have been freed of original sin after his conception and before birth, whereas Mary was preserved from her conception from contracting original sin.	1 john 1:8-10 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, Actually the Catholic church itself teaches that only Jesus could keep the whole law perfectly..and THAT is a description of sinless:)	The idea that man is born guilty due to something he did not do is one i do not subscribe to. (2Ki. 14:5-6; 2Chr. 25:4; Jer. 31:29-30; Eze.18:20) Adam;s sin did lead to condemnation, that of his own and his progeny due to man having and yielding to his a sinful nature, (Gn. 4:7) and he also and suffers the temporal effects if Adam's sin, but the final judgment is based upon one's own works. (Rev. 20:12) And one can be filled with their Holy Spirit, which is an aspect of grace, and yet be a sinner. And as argued below, if John the Baptist was made free from sin before birth, then God could have done the same for all.
6	So God didn't have the power to absolve her as has been described in Catholic canons?	If God could have simply absolved Mary's sin, He could do it for everyone. Then there would have been no need for Jesus to die.	The first part of the Protestant is valid, but God forgave sins prior to Jesus death under the rubric of the final atonement.
7	Interesting logic, I guess this means Jesus sinned then right? For is he not part of “All”?	if Mary was indeed sinless, it would have been very logical to claim her as an exception here,	And consistent. (see #2),.
8	You should be concerned about YOUR salvation since you choose to disparage the Mother of Christ. She is much more active than a lot of other saints.	Making up stories about her being sinless, immaculately conceived, perpetually virgin, assumed and whatever else their fancy conjures up, and passing them off as truth does no one any favors,	Not thinking of any man of women beyond what is written is Scriptural. (1Cor. 4:6) The idea that the Bible supports prayers to the departed, or that Mary is capable of or needed to hear prayer is without warrant and is contrary to what is instructed and exampled in the Bible.
9	If Mary simple prodding of her son Jesus caused him to do something he originally did not intend to do and yet did it. That is Love for ones Mother and speaks wonders to have Mary petitioning Jesus for you	Mary's not the only woman who seems to have convince Jesus to do what he had not intended.	P response is valid, while the idea that we need a heavenly mother is a psychological and not a Biblical one. No insufficiency exists with Christ in terms of access or ability or compassion than would necessitate or advantage praying to heavenly intercessor.
10	Hey, if you find happiness by trashing the Mother of Our Lord and Savior, I won’t stand in the way.
11	The Catholic Church herself admits that much of Mariology lacks scriptural support. Fine.” Really I missed that update		Perhaps "The Catholic Encyclopedia states that there are “no direct or categorical and stringent proof of the dogma can be brought forward from Scripture.” is one that was meant. (Frederick G. Holweck, “The Doctrine of the Immaculate Conception,” The Catholic Encyclopedia (1910), vol. 7, p. 242 http://oce.catholic.com/index.php?title=Immaculate_Conception#II._THE_HOLY_SCRIPTURE
12	I do not intend to participate in yet another forum established for the sole purpose of giving you a platform for blaspheming the Blessed Virgin and Catholic baiting	Catholics are bashing God’s Word by their tradition of Mary and all their accolades the RCC bestows on her which are not in Scripture.
13	They have gone too far and I only appeal to God for mercy on their behalf for I will no longer be party to their sin.
14	The first time I've ever been this ticked off to leave. If I would have been in the same room with you, you'd be in the hospital, and I would be in jail.
15	I’ve got news for you. If you are a baptized Catholic you are still a Catholic even though you may not presently be a practicing one.		Serving two master would provide a false statistic on membership. “If someone lives an unrepentant sinful life and stops going to Mass, etc., this person is technically a de facto apostate, and is no longer really a member of the Catholic Church.”   But as often is the case, formally it is not that simple. http://www.davidmacd.com/catholic/how_to_stop_being_catholic.htm

[cva66snipe]

No Mary was human and born of man and woman and like all of us sinned. Christ tells us something interesting.

Matt ch 12 46As Jesus was speaking to the crowd, his mother and brothers were outside, wanting to talk with him. 47Someone told Jesus, “Your mother and your brothers are outside, and they want to speak to you.” 48Jesus asked, “Who is my mother? Who are my brothers?” 49Then he pointed to his disciples and said, “These are my mother and brothers. 50Anyone who does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother!”

What does Paul say about sin?

Romans Ch 3 22We are made right in God’s sight when we trust in Jesus Christ to take away our sins. And we all can be saved in this same way, no matter who we are or what we have done. 23For all have sinned; all fall short of God’s glorious standard. 24Yet now God in his gracious kindness declares us not guilty. He has done this through Christ Jesus, who has freed us by taking away our sins. 25For God sent Jesus to take the punishment for our sins and to satisfy God’s anger against us.

Only three beings we know for certain existed before the Creation of this world. GOD, Christ, and The Holy Spirit. The Holy Trinity.

A verse in scripture shows Christ saying to His Disciple John here is your mother and to Mary saying here is your son. He only said it to John not even to Peter. Why? Because in those times widows were basically left to poverty and the mercy of the Temple which at that time used them. John took Mary into his home and I believe the significance of that was honoring The Ten Commandments. Honor Thy Father and Mother. This was to make certain His Disciples did not let her live in desolation which was common in that day for someone in her position.

Mary is our Sister In Christ just as Peter, James, John, Paul, Sister Belle and Brother Smith at church are our brothers, sisters, and mothers.

Luke ch 11 v 27 also tells us who is more blessed. Mary was blessed indeed above all women but she was also human. The first chapter of Luke says plainly whom Mary is. She was a human being born of a man and woman. Because she believed GOD would do what He said He would do she gave physical birth to the Savior of Mankind. Indeed an honor for her and a blessing for her and all mankind to come.

Mary needed Christ for her salvation. Why? Because she lived when Christ came. Her righteousness came from her obedience to GOD up to that point as Luke ch 1 states. However that doesn't mean being without sin. Example is Abraham. A sinner if one ever existed. Yet Abrahm was righteous because of his faith and finally after several stumbles his obedience to GOD.

Luke ch 1 42Elizabeth gave a glad cry and exclaimed to Mary, “You are blessed by God above all other women, and your child is blessed. 43What an honor this is, that the mother of my Lord should visit me! 44When you came in and greeted me, my baby jumped for joy the instant I heard your voice! 45You are blessed, because you believed that the Lord would do what he said.” 46Mary responded, “Oh, how I praise the Lord. 47 How I rejoice in God my Savior!

Now take the verse "45You are blessed, because you believed that the Lord would do what he said.” and then remember what Christ said in Luke ch 11 27As he was speaking, a woman in the crowd called out, “God bless your mother—the womb from which you came, and the breasts that nursed you!” 28He replied, “But even more blessed are all who hear the word of God and put it into practice.”

Elizabeth the Priest wife understood this & Mary understood it as well.

[Cronos]

Strawman.

The Church teaching is that Christ's sacrifice is what won us our Salvation. Church teaching is that His sacrifice is super-sufficient for our salvation.

Mary was the tool, the ark for holding God. This ark had to be purified, pure, clean, filled with grace to be able to bear God.

Just as the Ark of the First Covenant was so powerful that even priests who were uncleansed and men who aimed to prevent it from falling could get filled by one touch, so even more so the Ark of the second, greater, covenant had to be pure, filled utterly with grace.

All for God, all by God -- Mary did NOT save herself, she needed salvation and got that from her God, her Son, her Savior. Jesus saved Mary, He was her savior. He saved her, protected her from sin.

[Cronos]

Ann: WHAT sins did she commit?? LIES?? CHEATING??? CURSING?? MURDER???

Armydoc: Like every other mortal human, she undoubtedly committed all of these and more.

Ok, so you say...

[Cronos]

Sigh.. she had the right bloodlines, yet remember that God absolved her of Original Sin and hence God chose Mary because she was sinless. And Mary said yes.