Posted on 12/05/2010 6:14:57 PM PST by RnMomof7
............The Historical Evidence
The Roman Catholic Church claims that this doctrine, like all of their other distinctive doctrines, has the “unanimous consent of the Fathers” (contra unanimen consensum Patrum).[10] They argue that what they teach concerning the Immaculate Conception has been the historic belief of the Christian Church since the very beginning. As Ineffabilis Deus puts it,
The Catholic Church, directed by the Holy Spirit of God… has ever held as divinely revealed and as contained in the deposit of heavenly revelation this doctrine concerning the original innocence of the august Virgin… and thus has never ceased to explain, to teach and to foster this doctrine age after age in many ways and by solemn acts.[11]
However, the student of church history will quickly discover that this is not the case. The earliest traces of this doctrine appear in the middle ages when Marian piety was at its bloom. Even at this time, however, the acceptance of the doctrine was far from universal. Both Thomas Aquinas and Bernard of Clairvaux rejected the immaculate conception. The Franciscans (who affirmed the doctrine) and the Dominicans (who denied it, and of whom Aquinas was one) argued bitterly over whether this doctrine should be accepted, with the result that the pope at the time had to rule that both options were acceptable and neither side could accuse the other of heresy (ironic that several centuries later, denying this doctrine now results in an anathema from Rome).
When we go further back to the days of the early church, however, the evidence becomes even more glaring. For example, the third century church father Origen of Alexandria taught in his treatise Against Celsus (3:62 and 4:40) that that the words of Genesis 3:16 applies to every woman without exception. He did not exempt Mary from this. As church historian and patristic scholar J.N.D. Kelly points out,
Origen insisted that, like all human beings, she [Mary] needed redemption from her sins; in particular, he interpreted Simeon’s prophecy (Luke 2.35) that a sword would pierce her soul as confirming that she had been invaded with doubts when she saw her Son crucified.”[12]
Also, it must be noted that it has been often pointed out that Jesus’ rebuke of Mary in the wedding of Cana (John 2:1-12) demonstrates that she is in no wise perfect or sinless. Mark Shea scoffs at this idea that Mary is “sinfully pushing him [Jesus] to do theatrical wonders in John 2,” arguing that “there is no reason to think [this] is true.”[13] However, if we turn to the writings of the early church fathers, we see that this is precisely how they interpreted Mary’s actions and Jesus’ subsequent rebuke of her. In John Chrysostom’s twenty-first homily on the gospel of John (where he exegetes the wedding of Cana), he writes,
For where parents cause no impediment or hindrance in things belonging to God, it is our bounden duty to give way to them, and there is great danger in not doing so; but when they require anything unseasonably, and cause hindrance in any spiritual matter, it is unsafe to obey. And therefore He answered thus in this place, and again elsewhere “Who is My mother, and who are My brethren?” (Matt. xii.48), because they did not yet think rightly of Him; and she, because she had borne Him, claimed, according to the custom of other mothers, to direct Him in all things, when she ought to have reverenced and worshiped Him. This then was the reason why He answered as He did on that occasion… He rebuked her on that occasion, saying, “Woman, what have I to do with thee?” instructing her for the future not to do the like; because, though He was careful to honor His mother, yet He cared much more for the salvation of her soul, and for the doing good to the many, for which He took upon Him the flesh.[14]
Now why on earth would Jesus care for the salvation of Mary’s soul at this point in time if she was already “preventatively” saved through having been immaculately conceived, as was claimed earlier? That does not make any sense, whatsoever. Likewise, Theodoret of Cyrus agrees with John Chrysostom in saying that the Lord Jesus rebuked Mary during the wedding at Cana. In chapter two of his Dialogues, he writes,
If then He was made flesh, not by mutation, but by taking flesh, and both the former and the latter qualities are appropriate to Him as to God made flesh, as you said a moment ago, then the natures were not confounded, but remained unimpaired. And as long as we hold thus we shall perceive too the harmony of the Evangelists, for while the one proclaims the divine attributes of the one only begotten—the Lord Christ—the other sets forth His human qualities. So too Christ our Lord Himself teaches us, at one time calling Himself Son of God and at another Son of man: at one time He gives honour to His Mother as to her that gave Him birth [Luke 2:52]; at another He rebukes her as her Lord [John 2:4].[15] And then there is Augustine of Hippo, whom many Roman Catholic apologists attempt to appeal to for their belief in the immaculate conception. They like to quote a portion of chapter 42 of his treatise, On Nature and Grace, where Augustine states,
We must except the holy Virgin Mary, concerning whom I wish to raise no question when it touches the subject of sins, out of honour to the Lord; for from Him we know what abundance of grace for overcoming sin in every particular was conferred upon her who had the merit to conceive and bear Him who undoubtedly had no sin.[16]
However, those who quote this passage miss the point of what Augustine is trying to communicate. He was trying to refute the Pelagian heretics (who were the ones who were claiming that Mary—among other biblical characters—were sinless, since they denied the depravity of man). The article explaining Augustine’s view of Mary on Allan Fitzgerald’s Augustine Through the Ages helps clear up misconceptions regarding this passage:
His [Augustine's] position must be understood in the context of the Pelagian controversy. Pelagius himself had already admitted that Mary, like the other just women of the Old testament, was spared from any sin. Augustine never concedes that Mary was sinless but prefers to dismiss the question… Since medieval times this passage [from Nature and Grace] has sometimes been invoked to ground Augustine’s presumed acceptance of the doctrine of the immaculate conception. It is clear nonetheless that, given the various theories regarding the transmission of original sin current in his time, Augustine in that passage would not have meant to imply Mary’s immunity from it.[17]
This same article then goes on to demonstrate that Augustine did in fact believe that Mary received the stain of original sin from her parents:
His understanding of concupiscence as an integral part of all marital relations made it difficult, if not impossible, to accept that she herself was conceived immaculately. He… specifies in [Contra Julianum opus imperfectum 5.15.52]… that the body of Mary “although it came from this [concupiscence], nevertheless did not transmit it for she did not conceive in this way.” Lastly, De Genesi ad litteram 10.18.32 asserts: “And what more undefiled than the womb of the Virgin, whose flesh, although it came from procreation tainted by sin, nevertheless did not conceive from that source.”[18]
As can be seen here, these and many other early church fathers[19] did not regard Mary as being sinless or immaculately conceived. It is quite clear that the annals of church history testify that Rome cannot claim that this belief is based upon the “unanimous consent of the fathers,” since the belief that Mary was sinless started out among Pelagian heretics during the fifth century and did not become an acceptable belief until at least the beginning of the middle ages.
Conclusion
As has been demonstrated here, neither scripture nor church history support the contention of the Roman Catholic Church that Mary was sinless by virtue of having been immaculately conceived. In fact, Rome did not even regard this as an essential part of the faith until the middle of the nineteenth century. This should cause readers to pause and question why on earth Rome would anathematize Christians for disbelieving in a doctrine that was absent from the early church (unless one wants to side with the fifth century Pelagians) and was considered even by Rome to be essential for salvation until a century and a half ago. Because Rome said so? But their reasons for accepting this doctrine in the first place are so demonstrably wrong. After all, they claim that this was held as divinely revealed from the very beginning, even though four and a half centuries’ worth of patristic literature proves otherwise. This ought to be enough to cast doubt not only on Rome’s claims regarding Mariology, but their claims to authority on matters of faith and morals in general.
READ the whole Bible - it tells exactly who the ROCK is.
And Jesus was replying to the revelation that Peter received from God on ‘Who Jesus is’. It was on ‘Who HE is’, Jesus the Christ, that His church was being built on. Jesus, the Anointed One. The Rock of our Salvation.
>>May God draw you ever closer to Himself, this week.<<
And you also — as you draw closer to Him your vision will undoubtedly become clearer (as shall mine no doubt).
Shoot, I had my first pizza today . . . in almost a year.
The dentures still hurt though I have better suction on the bottoms than average. PTL for that.
Had deep dish. Tastey and functional enough. But had to cut it in tiny bite sized pieces to manage it.
Anyway—there are far worse things in life.
Cheers.
INDEED.
Christ spoke with the Samaritan woman at the well. He also spent much time with prostitutes, tax collectors and other sinful people. The Pharisees were outraged that he would interact with such "unclean" people. Associating with unclean people would surely make Him unclean!
The Pharisees were also offended that, while on a journey, on the Sabbath, Jesus' disciples "gleaned" wheat from the edge of the field, rolled it in their hands and ate the kernels. That's when Jesus explained why God gave us the Sabbath.
Jesus doesn't seem to conform to the behavior the legalists want to foist upon Him. He Rocks!
>>READ the whole Bible - it tells exactly who the ROCK is.
And Jesus was replying to the revelation that Peter received from God on ‘Who Jesus is’. It was on ‘Who HE is’, Jesus the Christ, that His church was being built on. Jesus, the Anointed One. The Rock of our Salvation.<<
Not only did I READ the Bible, I QUOTED it to you. There isn’t much room for insertion of opinion there. Jesus was speaking to Simon and was clear on what He wanted from Simon/Peter.
Any other interpretation is a torturous inversion of a very clear passage.
READing is fundamental.
If you give me a short while I think I can get the Aramaic (although it has been a while) and that should help provide the positional context you seem intent on distorting.
But no guarantees. Original Biblical passages in Aramaic, Hebrew and Greek seem to come and go on the Internet — I think educational institutions like to hide them but quien sabe...
AMEN! AMEN!
Drink enough beer...you’ll see it, if not, keep trying.
Gee skippy, my own mother lit candles to saints. It's still idol worship. Mexico is known for mixing Catholicism with pagan worship. I'm not calling your FIL a drug dealer. I'm suggesting those that make offering to statues are pagans.
Muerte was an extreme example of idol worship. A better place is Isaiah 40. Why do you offer gifts to statues? Do these statues eat or drink? Do flowers please them? Do the eyes of these statues see light so that you must light candles for them?
What power do they have? They cannot move on their own so you must carry them from place to place. Yet you sacrifice offerings to them in and attempt to entice them to act on your behalf.
The curtain in the temple was torn in half. You can go directly to the Lord. Why does this bother you?
Do you prefer small gods that you can carry around?
As long as you got the job done it's all good!
From playing guitar, I got in the habit of eating fries with a fork. I attended jam sessions in places that offered bar food. The salt and grease can really screw up your fret board.
Habits die hard and while deployed, I used my fork to eat my fries. I got a lot of really odd looks.
But they are not. They are merely a cultural respect for saints who are seen as a positive force in one's life. And the Lady of Guadalupe is venerated across Latin America.
I see no downside and, although I hesitate to speak for God, I suspect He accepts the offerings in the spirit they are meant.
God is not a prig.
Then he Catholic church doesn't really understand the mechanics of pregnancy.
They do not share flesh, as the baby is a separate entity from the mother.
They do not share blood, as they each have their own circulatory systems with the baby as likely as not, having a different blood type than the mother.
Besides, the body is not the spirit or soul. The body is corrupted by the sinfulness of the soul, but the sin originates in the heart long before it's acted out in the body.
Wow -- that had to really suck. I am not a big pizza guy but it is nice to get one when the I feel the craving.
I hope this means you are an upward swing ending with steak and the like!
I use chopsticks . . . and for popcorn.
Originally to keep my books clean.
Though popcorn has been off the menu for a long time, too. LOL.
“an honest question about salvation is not a lie..it is a question.. I know Catholics are never allowed to have questions, but as a protestant i am”
Catholics are allowed to ask questions. Maybe you just didn’t like the answers.
I am pretty sure the Catholic Church understand pregnancy better than most (along with the Mormons). You know the definition of people who use "the rhythm method?" -- PARENTS!
Thanks for your kind wishes.
Not to the steak stage yet.
Well pulverized chicken fried steak . . . works.
One good benefit of the toothlessness and months of gruel . . . I eat a lot less now.
Half a medium portion can fill me.
The pizza today. I had one slice. A year ago, I might have had 2 or 3.
Thin crust—3 or 4 pieces.
Not now.
LOL.
The problem is, an offering to "Our Lady of Guadalupe" is not an offering to God.
I think the true saints, those who suffered for Christ, would be offended by prayers or offerings made to them rather than to Christ.
In the old testament, even God's angels were greatly disturbed when men bowed to them. They recalled how Satan tried to take God's place.
By making offerings to idols, you're doing no better than if you sacrifice a goat for zeus.
agreed
Cheers to you too. I hate, hate the fact that I have problem teeth and will most likely end up with a bridge sooner rather than later so I totally sympathize with you. Glad you enjoyed the pizza.
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