Posted on 12/05/2010 6:14:57 PM PST by RnMomof7
............The Historical Evidence
The Roman Catholic Church claims that this doctrine, like all of their other distinctive doctrines, has the “unanimous consent of the Fathers” (contra unanimen consensum Patrum).[10] They argue that what they teach concerning the Immaculate Conception has been the historic belief of the Christian Church since the very beginning. As Ineffabilis Deus puts it,
The Catholic Church, directed by the Holy Spirit of God… has ever held as divinely revealed and as contained in the deposit of heavenly revelation this doctrine concerning the original innocence of the august Virgin… and thus has never ceased to explain, to teach and to foster this doctrine age after age in many ways and by solemn acts.[11]
However, the student of church history will quickly discover that this is not the case. The earliest traces of this doctrine appear in the middle ages when Marian piety was at its bloom. Even at this time, however, the acceptance of the doctrine was far from universal. Both Thomas Aquinas and Bernard of Clairvaux rejected the immaculate conception. The Franciscans (who affirmed the doctrine) and the Dominicans (who denied it, and of whom Aquinas was one) argued bitterly over whether this doctrine should be accepted, with the result that the pope at the time had to rule that both options were acceptable and neither side could accuse the other of heresy (ironic that several centuries later, denying this doctrine now results in an anathema from Rome).
When we go further back to the days of the early church, however, the evidence becomes even more glaring. For example, the third century church father Origen of Alexandria taught in his treatise Against Celsus (3:62 and 4:40) that that the words of Genesis 3:16 applies to every woman without exception. He did not exempt Mary from this. As church historian and patristic scholar J.N.D. Kelly points out,
Origen insisted that, like all human beings, she [Mary] needed redemption from her sins; in particular, he interpreted Simeon’s prophecy (Luke 2.35) that a sword would pierce her soul as confirming that she had been invaded with doubts when she saw her Son crucified.”[12]
Also, it must be noted that it has been often pointed out that Jesus’ rebuke of Mary in the wedding of Cana (John 2:1-12) demonstrates that she is in no wise perfect or sinless. Mark Shea scoffs at this idea that Mary is “sinfully pushing him [Jesus] to do theatrical wonders in John 2,” arguing that “there is no reason to think [this] is true.”[13] However, if we turn to the writings of the early church fathers, we see that this is precisely how they interpreted Mary’s actions and Jesus’ subsequent rebuke of her. In John Chrysostom’s twenty-first homily on the gospel of John (where he exegetes the wedding of Cana), he writes,
For where parents cause no impediment or hindrance in things belonging to God, it is our bounden duty to give way to them, and there is great danger in not doing so; but when they require anything unseasonably, and cause hindrance in any spiritual matter, it is unsafe to obey. And therefore He answered thus in this place, and again elsewhere “Who is My mother, and who are My brethren?” (Matt. xii.48), because they did not yet think rightly of Him; and she, because she had borne Him, claimed, according to the custom of other mothers, to direct Him in all things, when she ought to have reverenced and worshiped Him. This then was the reason why He answered as He did on that occasion… He rebuked her on that occasion, saying, “Woman, what have I to do with thee?” instructing her for the future not to do the like; because, though He was careful to honor His mother, yet He cared much more for the salvation of her soul, and for the doing good to the many, for which He took upon Him the flesh.[14]
Now why on earth would Jesus care for the salvation of Mary’s soul at this point in time if she was already “preventatively” saved through having been immaculately conceived, as was claimed earlier? That does not make any sense, whatsoever. Likewise, Theodoret of Cyrus agrees with John Chrysostom in saying that the Lord Jesus rebuked Mary during the wedding at Cana. In chapter two of his Dialogues, he writes,
If then He was made flesh, not by mutation, but by taking flesh, and both the former and the latter qualities are appropriate to Him as to God made flesh, as you said a moment ago, then the natures were not confounded, but remained unimpaired. And as long as we hold thus we shall perceive too the harmony of the Evangelists, for while the one proclaims the divine attributes of the one only begotten—the Lord Christ—the other sets forth His human qualities. So too Christ our Lord Himself teaches us, at one time calling Himself Son of God and at another Son of man: at one time He gives honour to His Mother as to her that gave Him birth [Luke 2:52]; at another He rebukes her as her Lord [John 2:4].[15] And then there is Augustine of Hippo, whom many Roman Catholic apologists attempt to appeal to for their belief in the immaculate conception. They like to quote a portion of chapter 42 of his treatise, On Nature and Grace, where Augustine states,
We must except the holy Virgin Mary, concerning whom I wish to raise no question when it touches the subject of sins, out of honour to the Lord; for from Him we know what abundance of grace for overcoming sin in every particular was conferred upon her who had the merit to conceive and bear Him who undoubtedly had no sin.[16]
However, those who quote this passage miss the point of what Augustine is trying to communicate. He was trying to refute the Pelagian heretics (who were the ones who were claiming that Mary—among other biblical characters—were sinless, since they denied the depravity of man). The article explaining Augustine’s view of Mary on Allan Fitzgerald’s Augustine Through the Ages helps clear up misconceptions regarding this passage:
His [Augustine's] position must be understood in the context of the Pelagian controversy. Pelagius himself had already admitted that Mary, like the other just women of the Old testament, was spared from any sin. Augustine never concedes that Mary was sinless but prefers to dismiss the question… Since medieval times this passage [from Nature and Grace] has sometimes been invoked to ground Augustine’s presumed acceptance of the doctrine of the immaculate conception. It is clear nonetheless that, given the various theories regarding the transmission of original sin current in his time, Augustine in that passage would not have meant to imply Mary’s immunity from it.[17]
This same article then goes on to demonstrate that Augustine did in fact believe that Mary received the stain of original sin from her parents:
His understanding of concupiscence as an integral part of all marital relations made it difficult, if not impossible, to accept that she herself was conceived immaculately. He… specifies in [Contra Julianum opus imperfectum 5.15.52]… that the body of Mary “although it came from this [concupiscence], nevertheless did not transmit it for she did not conceive in this way.” Lastly, De Genesi ad litteram 10.18.32 asserts: “And what more undefiled than the womb of the Virgin, whose flesh, although it came from procreation tainted by sin, nevertheless did not conceive from that source.”[18]
As can be seen here, these and many other early church fathers[19] did not regard Mary as being sinless or immaculately conceived. It is quite clear that the annals of church history testify that Rome cannot claim that this belief is based upon the “unanimous consent of the fathers,” since the belief that Mary was sinless started out among Pelagian heretics during the fifth century and did not become an acceptable belief until at least the beginning of the middle ages.
Conclusion
As has been demonstrated here, neither scripture nor church history support the contention of the Roman Catholic Church that Mary was sinless by virtue of having been immaculately conceived. In fact, Rome did not even regard this as an essential part of the faith until the middle of the nineteenth century. This should cause readers to pause and question why on earth Rome would anathematize Christians for disbelieving in a doctrine that was absent from the early church (unless one wants to side with the fifth century Pelagians) and was considered even by Rome to be essential for salvation until a century and a half ago. Because Rome said so? But their reasons for accepting this doctrine in the first place are so demonstrably wrong. After all, they claim that this was held as divinely revealed from the very beginning, even though four and a half centuries’ worth of patristic literature proves otherwise. This ought to be enough to cast doubt not only on Rome’s claims regarding Mariology, but their claims to authority on matters of faith and morals in general.
Today, the majority of the Igbo people are Christian, well over half of whom are Roman Catholics
lol. "Well over half." So the divide is 60/40. That means the Igbos are 40% Protestant.
Yesh. Your own statistics deny your assertions.
When one are in a hole over ones head it is best to stop digging. My statement was that the Igbo were /are "predominantly Catholic". My words were very clear and my corroboration impeccable. Lying about what I said doesn't make one right.
That does not mean a 90/10 split. It means what it says.
lol. Your own evidence betrays you.
As God wills.
What a pathetic ruse. My words and my evidence stands on its own merits. The Igbo, as confirmed by many sources including the US State Department, were and are Predominantly Catholic. As Ronald Reagan said; "Facts are stubborn things".
Predominantly is an adjective, not a coefficient, meaning; "for the most part; mostly; mainly" It characterizes, not quantifies them.
Now stop this childish little game and accept your errors. Being wrong is not a sin, but insisting you weren't when you were is.
According to YOUR source.
And NOWHERE in your "evidence" does it say Protestants killed Igbos, as you wrongly insisted. It was the muslims who slaughtered both Protestants and Roman Catholics.
You just throw out the figure of 60/40 because it says well over half. All well over half means is that it is more than 50% not that it is 60%. Assumptions are not facts.
It's a simple majority.
There are plenty of Protestant Igbos and NONE of them were perpetrators of the Biafran war which was waged by muslims against Protestants and Roman Catholics.
Nowhere in any of his posts does Natural Law assert a 90/10 divide between Catholics and Protestants.
By the way the Nigerian government troops in the civil war were not only composed of Muslims. The troops were both Christian and Muslim. General Gowan who was the head of the Federal Military Government during the civil war was a Non Catholic Christian.
Nigeria also had support from Great Britian. Now I will go down the rabbit hole and try some special logic.
Nigeria was supported by Great Britian
The official state religion of Great Britian is the Church of England. This must mean they are intertwined in state affairs.
This means the C of E supported Nigeria during the civil war.
The C of E is a Protestant denomination.
This means all Protestant denominations supported Nigeria.
Nigerian federal troops killed Biafrans
This means Protestants supported the killing of Biafrans.
Some Protestant Nigerians killed Biafrans during the civil war.
Protestants are killers.
Hey that was easy.
Yes it does mean most. It does not mean all and that was never claimed. Buy a dictionary.
It may mean a simple majority or it may mean a substantial one. The fact remains that the Ibo who seceeded and formed Biafra were predominately Roman Catholic. After the civil war many left Nigeria.
The religious divide in Nigeria is a result of British colonial policy. The North is large majority Muslim because of this. But the civil war was not just about Northern Muslims vs Southern Christians and others. The initial event that made the Igbo decide to leave and form a seperate country was the attack by Muslims on Igbos living in the North. However once the Biafrans seceeded the Nigerian Federal Military Government troops was the opposing force. This force consisted of both Muslim and Christians who were loyal to Nigeria. It was majority Muslim because Nigeria as a whole is majority Muslim.
The Igbo are majority Christian with the greatest percentage being Catholic. Mostly because of the history of Catholic missions in Nigeria.
No honest or decent person would contend that the participation of those who purport to follow any religion or denomination in activities that are contrary to that organizations principles implicate that organization in the actions. That being said I am not alleging that any Protestant Church or Protestant denomination supported the atrocities of the Biarfran war. That does not mean that no Protestants were part of the Nigerian military.
Simple research will confirm that during the time of Nigerian Civil War the majority of the Nigerian Army was comprised of the Yoruba Tribe and that the majority of the Yoruba Tribe are Christians nearly equally divided between Protestants and Pentecostals. Those are the facts. People will read into them what they like.
Friend here. Did you mean to address this to me? I agree with what you have posted.
ABSOLUTELY INDEED.
THE
WEASEL WORDS FOR MARY BRIGADE
IS TIRELESS HEREON.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.