Was Mary Sinless?

The Aristophrenium ^ | 12/05/2010 | " Fisher"

[RnMomof7]

............The Historical Evidence

The Roman Catholic Church claims that this doctrine, like all of their other distinctive doctrines, has the “unanimous consent of the Fathers” (contra unanimen consensum Patrum).[10] They argue that what they teach concerning the Immaculate Conception has been the historic belief of the Christian Church since the very beginning. As Ineffabilis Deus puts it,

The Catholic Church, directed by the Holy Spirit of God… has ever held as divinely revealed and as contained in the deposit of heavenly revelation this doctrine concerning the original innocence of the august Virgin… and thus has never ceased to explain, to teach and to foster this doctrine age after age in many ways and by solemn acts.[11]

However, the student of church history will quickly discover that this is not the case. The earliest traces of this doctrine appear in the middle ages when Marian piety was at its bloom. Even at this time, however, the acceptance of the doctrine was far from universal. Both Thomas Aquinas and Bernard of Clairvaux rejected the immaculate conception. The Franciscans (who affirmed the doctrine) and the Dominicans (who denied it, and of whom Aquinas was one) argued bitterly over whether this doctrine should be accepted, with the result that the pope at the time had to rule that both options were acceptable and neither side could accuse the other of heresy (ironic that several centuries later, denying this doctrine now results in an anathema from Rome).

When we go further back to the days of the early church, however, the evidence becomes even more glaring. For example, the third century church father Origen of Alexandria taught in his treatise Against Celsus (3:62 and 4:40) that that the words of Genesis 3:16 applies to every woman without exception. He did not exempt Mary from this. As church historian and patristic scholar J.N.D. Kelly points out,

Origen insisted that, like all human beings, she [Mary] needed redemption from her sins; in particular, he interpreted Simeon’s prophecy (Luke 2.35) that a sword would pierce her soul as confirming that she had been invaded with doubts when she saw her Son crucified.”[12]

Also, it must be noted that it has been often pointed out that Jesus’ rebuke of Mary in the wedding of Cana (John 2:1-12) demonstrates that she is in no wise perfect or sinless. Mark Shea scoffs at this idea that Mary is “sinfully pushing him [Jesus] to do theatrical wonders in John 2,” arguing that “there is no reason to think [this] is true.”[13] However, if we turn to the writings of the early church fathers, we see that this is precisely how they interpreted Mary’s actions and Jesus’ subsequent rebuke of her. In John Chrysostom’s twenty-first homily on the gospel of John (where he exegetes the wedding of Cana), he writes,

For where parents cause no impediment or hindrance in things belonging to God, it is our bounden duty to give way to them, and there is great danger in not doing so; but when they require anything unseasonably, and cause hindrance in any spiritual matter, it is unsafe to obey. And therefore He answered thus in this place, and again elsewhere “Who is My mother, and who are My brethren?” (Matt. xii.48), because they did not yet think rightly of Him; and she, because she had borne Him, claimed, according to the custom of other mothers, to direct Him in all things, when she ought to have reverenced and worshiped Him. This then was the reason why He answered as He did on that occasion… He rebuked her on that occasion, saying, “Woman, what have I to do with thee?” instructing her for the future not to do the like; because, though He was careful to honor His mother, yet He cared much more for the salvation of her soul, and for the doing good to the many, for which He took upon Him the flesh.[14]

Now why on earth would Jesus care for the salvation of Mary’s soul at this point in time if she was already “preventatively” saved through having been immaculately conceived, as was claimed earlier? That does not make any sense, whatsoever. Likewise, Theodoret of Cyrus agrees with John Chrysostom in saying that the Lord Jesus rebuked Mary during the wedding at Cana. In chapter two of his Dialogues, he writes,

If then He was made flesh, not by mutation, but by taking flesh, and both the former and the latter qualities are appropriate to Him as to God made flesh, as you said a moment ago, then the natures were not confounded, but remained unimpaired. And as long as we hold thus we shall perceive too the harmony of the Evangelists, for while the one proclaims the divine attributes of the one only begotten—the Lord Christ—the other sets forth His human qualities. So too Christ our Lord Himself teaches us, at one time calling Himself Son of God and at another Son of man: at one time He gives honour to His Mother as to her that gave Him birth [Luke 2:52]; at another He rebukes her as her Lord [John 2:4].[15] And then there is Augustine of Hippo, whom many Roman Catholic apologists attempt to appeal to for their belief in the immaculate conception. They like to quote a portion of chapter 42 of his treatise, On Nature and Grace, where Augustine states,

We must except the holy Virgin Mary, concerning whom I wish to raise no question when it touches the subject of sins, out of honour to the Lord; for from Him we know what abundance of grace for overcoming sin in every particular was conferred upon her who had the merit to conceive and bear Him who undoubtedly had no sin.[16]

However, those who quote this passage miss the point of what Augustine is trying to communicate. He was trying to refute the Pelagian heretics (who were the ones who were claiming that Mary—among other biblical characters—were sinless, since they denied the depravity of man). The article explaining Augustine’s view of Mary on Allan Fitzgerald’s Augustine Through the Ages helps clear up misconceptions regarding this passage:

His [Augustine's] position must be understood in the context of the Pelagian controversy. Pelagius himself had already admitted that Mary, like the other just women of the Old testament, was spared from any sin. Augustine never concedes that Mary was sinless but prefers to dismiss the question… Since medieval times this passage [from Nature and Grace] has sometimes been invoked to ground Augustine’s presumed acceptance of the doctrine of the immaculate conception. It is clear nonetheless that, given the various theories regarding the transmission of original sin current in his time, Augustine in that passage would not have meant to imply Mary’s immunity from it.[17]

This same article then goes on to demonstrate that Augustine did in fact believe that Mary received the stain of original sin from her parents:

His understanding of concupiscence as an integral part of all marital relations made it difficult, if not impossible, to accept that she herself was conceived immaculately. He… specifies in [Contra Julianum opus imperfectum 5.15.52]… that the body of Mary “although it came from this [concupiscence], nevertheless did not transmit it for she did not conceive in this way.” Lastly, De Genesi ad litteram 10.18.32 asserts: “And what more undefiled than the womb of the Virgin, whose flesh, although it came from procreation tainted by sin, nevertheless did not conceive from that source.”[18]

As can be seen here, these and many other early church fathers[19] did not regard Mary as being sinless or immaculately conceived. It is quite clear that the annals of church history testify that Rome cannot claim that this belief is based upon the “unanimous consent of the fathers,” since the belief that Mary was sinless started out among Pelagian heretics during the fifth century and did not become an acceptable belief until at least the beginning of the middle ages.

Conclusion

As has been demonstrated here, neither scripture nor church history support the contention of the Roman Catholic Church that Mary was sinless by virtue of having been immaculately conceived. In fact, Rome did not even regard this as an essential part of the faith until the middle of the nineteenth century. This should cause readers to pause and question why on earth Rome would anathematize Christians for disbelieving in a doctrine that was absent from the early church (unless one wants to side with the fifth century Pelagians) and was considered even by Rome to be essential for salvation until a century and a half ago. Because Rome said so? But their reasons for accepting this doctrine in the first place are so demonstrably wrong. After all, they claim that this was held as divinely revealed from the very beginning, even though four and a half centuries’ worth of patristic literature proves otherwise. This ought to be enough to cast doubt not only on Rome’s claims regarding Mariology, but their claims to authority on matters of faith and morals in general.

[shurwouldluv_a_smallergov]

If you used to be Catholic, you should understand that Catholics consider the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass as THE supreme act of worship, as it is the eternal sacrifice of Jesus Christ offering Himself to the Father.

We do not believe that Jesus is dying again, or continually dying, He died once- but continually offers Himself to the Father. For that brief moment for us in time at Mass, we get to take part in that sacrifice, and offer ourselves, along with Jesus, to the Father. We worship God, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, as our Creator, Redeemer and Sanctifier.

We receive Jesus Christ, body, blood, soul and divinity in the Eucharist. I could go on and on, in my limited and feeble way, but hopefully you get the idea.

Until recently I did not know that non-Catholics believe that once you die and your soul is separated from your body, you are... what, unconscious? asleep? Out of commission?

Catholics do not share that belief. We believe in the “communion of saints”; the Church Militant (we on earth), the Church Suffering (those in purgatory), and the Church Triumphant (those in heaven). We are a family, and believe God is very big on families, as God (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) is the first family. The Church Triumphant can help us by praying for us, just as family members here on earth help each other.

Mary holds a special place because she was the Mother of Jesus (God) and always said yes to God. She is the mother of the Holy Family, Jesus, Mary and Joseph, and our spiritual mother. She is anxious to help us, still struggling here on earth; as is all of heaven. We ask our heavenly family to pray for us.

I hope that answers your question...

[Cronos]

Cool, however, stick with the few who are actually Christian. That would be helpful.

There are many truly Christian Protestant groups out there. Let's boil it down to the basics -- and I love the way the Nicene Creed encapsulates it, a basic belief in Jesus Christ as Lord and God, One God with The Father and the Holy Spirit. Most of the folks here on this board believe in these basics.

however, we do have Messianic types who deny the divinity of Christ and Unitarians who deny the Trinity and the divinity. And we do have on open threads like this members of groups such as Dr. E's or the Mormons which do not share these basic beliefs in Christ and His teachings.

You can even notice it in the way they post. Check, say wmfights's (a Baptist) who posts threads on how Baptists missionaries face troubles around the world. He gets murmurs of sympathies or prayers or more from all different Christian groups -- Baptists, Lutherans, Catholics, Orthodox, etc. Ditto when a Catholic or Orthodox posts news about persecution of Catholics or Orthodox in the Middle East or Asia or elsewhere. Yet one group is conspiciously absent -- the same group that shouts out aloud it's message of hate and makes statements like is the enemy of all free republics who do not wish to become subservient to his "global authority" or refer to hitler youth with no aim to teach or preach, but rather to cause hurt.

What tricked me for so long was that I thought that Dr. E's posts of hate somehow characterised the 'all Protestants' because of the way it was worded, seemingly speaking for 'all Protestants' -- and many Catholics and non-Catholics also wonder this. But then I saw OPC members attacking Protestants too and never see them spreading Christ's message, just jumping on board a thread to post barbs -- no questions, just insults. And on studying this cult further, one sees that the OPC is just another group like the lds or Jehovah's Witnesses that pretends to be Christian to entice people in, yet keeps it's Prophets and targets folks with low self-esteem to join. However, with it's message of hate it just turns these poor folks into spouters of hate as we see in their posts.

[count-your-change]

Thank you for the commentary but websites that have endless statistics is not really what I inquired about.

[Cronos]

Good, valid questions and ones every sensible person should and does ask.

your statement Had Mary said "No," would we not have salvation? God chose Mary because he knew she would br obedient. If there was no Mary, God would still have some obedient girl to carry His earthly incarnation. God doesn't need us; but God chose us. --> you're correct, God's plan of salvation would still happen. Mary did nothing great except be obedient. We hold her in esteem for being obedient.

Is the power of the Architect of Creation and the Author of life chained by the whim of a young maiden? He chose her because she would be obedient. If she was not so inclined, He would have chosen another. Again correct, He would have chosen another if she was so inclined. That is why she correctly says He who is mighty has done great things for me

God’s grace for Mary was not earned by her in any way—but given freely by God. All Mary did was say yes.

[Cronos]

I don’t recall anything unBiblical from her.

Exactly -- from my (short) viewings of Joyce Meyer, I haven't heard anything unbiblical from here (believe me, I was trying!). I've read she is a proponent of the prosperity gospel, but quite frankly I've not heard her say anything that seems like that. Creflo Dollar, yes, but Joyce Meyers, no.

ES -- I think our main point is that she may have faults, but she does help many, which is good, right?

[Cronos]

we've repeated it quite often in this thread. Jesus's divinity is not dependent on Mary's being sinless. Quite the contrary, the reason for this sinlessness is:

1. in God's presence, sin cannot stay, it is destroyed.
2. Jesus in the womb was still Jesus Christ, Lord and God.
3. To protect the bearer of God, she had to be made filled with grace and she had to be made free of sin -- for her to be able to bear the Lord

now her own parents being sinful did not affect this as mary is just a creature, and sinlessness being in contact with sinfulness does not affect sinlessness (e.g. a newborn baby in contact with a sinful mother), but the blazing power of God that destroys anything that is tainted with sin, if that is kept in a box/womb which has even a slight tain of sin, that box/womb will be destroyed.

[Cronos]

Good point met — dr. E, reject the false unChristian teachings of the OPC cult and come to Christ. You will be persecuted by the OPC cult for leaving it, but no fear, “Blessed are you when others revile you and persecute you and utter all kinds of evil against you falsely on my account. Rejoice and be glad, for your reward is great in heaven, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you.”

[Grizzled Bear]

Cool, however, stick with the few who are actually Christian. That would be helpful.

In the various Churches I've visited; some preached the "prosperity gospel," a certain preacher stated that "a person who tithes will have their washing machine last longer than someone who does not tithe," another pastor claimed that "terrorism is a result of poverty," still another claimed that drinking alcohol, rather that over indulgence of alcohol is a sin.

Don't get me started with what I heard when I wandered into a Liberation Theology Service...

When ever I enter a new church, before I sit down I seek the Preacher or a senior church elder. "I ask, how may one enter the Kingdom of Heaven."

The answer is a good indicator.

What tricked me for so long was that I thought that Dr. E's posts of hate somehow characterised the 'all Protestants' because of the way it was worded, seemingly speaking for 'all Protestants' -- and many Catholics and non-Catholics also wonder this.

To be fair, if one were to consider the posts/comments/attacks by some of the Catholics on this thread as the measure of all Catholics, they would be left with a very ugly image.

[1000 silverlings]

There’s now over 119 million members of the Catholic church worldwide foregoing all the cult rituals of the old Roman church, each church claming its own authority and each member claiming a personal (no pope, no magisterium)relationship with the HS directly, so all this pathos being exhibited over other churches is well... pathosetic

[Dr. Eckleburg]

A “global authority” regulated by whose law? He is speaking of a world government. He could not be more clear.

Are RCs blind? Can they not read for themselves to see what the words mean?

[Cronos]

maryz Rabbi Akiva was being combed with burning rakes by the Romans when he said he had said the Shema every day, repeating the commandment. Under torture unto death, he rejoiced that he now knew that he had kept it

Rn And muslims blow themselves up.. because they believe the lie of Islam..

Are you saying the Rabbi is somehow similar to the scum jehadis?????

This man was judging himself based on human judgement , He had to stand before Christ for that final judgement, it was not his to do He hardley seems to have judged himself, you are reading your own words into his mouth. All that is said is that he rejoiced knowign that he had kept it.

[Grizzled Bear]

God’s grace for Mary was not earned by her in any way—but given freely by God. All Mary did was say yes.

On this, we can certainly agree!

[Cronos]

Hardly — they don’t believe that speaking in tongues is from God.

[evangmlw]

We know that because she had an earthly father and an earthly mother. Like David’s confession, she like all of us were “conceived in iniquity.” It’s called being born with a sin nature and Mary was no exception. Jesus Christ is the only exception because He was born of a virgin, unlike the rest of us. If Mary did not sin, the Scriptures are a lie and cannot be trusted. I’ll choose the testimony of Scripture over the words and dogma of a man-made, devil conceived apostate religion.

[Cronos]

oh, the Vatican is lovely, but Rome is a historian, art lover and architecture lover’s delight. I never tire of describing the first time i saw the pantheon — you go walking through winding streets until suddenly you turn a corner and THERE is this beautiful 1900 year old monument and you are stunned! Dittofor San Giovanni di Laterano or any of the numerous works of art there.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

Speaking in tongues is not a salvation issue.

Believing in “another Christ” and a “co-redeemer” most certainly is a salvation issue, both lies from the pit of hell from which men should be praying to God for release.

[evangmlw]

Yes, her Savior. If she were sinless, why would she call Him her Savior. She didn’t need saving if she were sinless. Great Scritpure to substantiated the truth here. This is where Catholics miss it, they rest in their tradition, decrees, and dogma, rather than God’s Word.

[Cronos]

Grizzled Bear --> you can read the entire encyclical for yourself here

And when you do read it and in it's entirety, you will understand why I point out that Dr. E's cult is a non-Christian cult whose sole aim is to spread hatred. The encyclical also says

66. Global interconnectedness has led to the emergence of a new political power, that of consumers and their associations. This is a phenomenon that needs to be further explored, as it contains positive elements to be encouraged as well as excesses to be avoided. It is good for people to realize that purchasing is always a moral — and not simply economic — act. Hence the consumer has a specific social responsibility, which goes hand-in- hand with the social responsibility of the enterprise

or in 65.. Both the regulation of the financial sector, so as to safeguard weaker parties and discourage scandalous speculation, and experimentation with new forms of finance, designed to support development projects, are positive experiences that should be further explored and encouraged, highlighting the responsibility of the investor.

OR, how the encyclicals starts off
1. Charity in truth, to which Jesus Christ bore witness by his earthly life and especially by his death and resurrection, is the principal driving force behind the authentic development of every person and of all humanity. Love — caritas — is an extraordinary force which leads people to opt for courageous and generous engagement in the field of justice and peace. It is a force that has its origin in God, Eternal Love and Absolute Truth. Each person finds his good by adherence to God's plan for him, in order to realize it fully: in this plan, he finds his truth, and through adherence to this truth he becomes free (cf. Jn 8:32). To defend the truth, to articulate it with humility and conviction, and to bear witness to it in life are therefore exacting and indispensable forms of charity. Charity, in fact, “rejoices in the truth” (1 Cor 13:6). All people feel the interior impulse to love authentically: love and truth never abandon them completely, because these are the vocation planted by God in the heart and mind of every human person. The search for love and truth is purified and liberated by Jesus Christ from the impoverishment that our humanity brings to it, and he reveals to us in all its fullness the initiative of love and the plan for true life that God has prepared for us. In Christ, charity in truth becomes the Face of his Person, a vocation for us to love our brothers and sisters in the truth of his plan. Indeed, he himself is the Truth (cf. Jn 14:6).

or, how it ends

79. Development needs Christians with their arms raised towards God in prayer, Christians moved by the knowledge that truth-filled love, caritas in veritate, from which authentic development proceeds, is not produced by us, but given to us. For this reason, even in the most difficult and complex times, besides recognizing what is happening, we must above all else turn to God's love. Development requires attention to the spiritual life, a serious consideration of the experiences of trust in God, spiritual fellowship in Christ, reliance upon God's providence and mercy, love and forgiveness, self-denial, acceptance of others, justice and peace. All this is essential if “hearts of stone” are to be transformed into “hearts of flesh” (Ezek 36:26), rendering life on earth “divine” and thus more worthy of humanity. All this is of man, because man is the subject of his own existence; and at the same time it is of God, because God is at the beginning and end of all that is good, all that leads to salvation: “the world or life or death or the present or the future, all are yours; and you are Christ's; and Christ is God's” (1 Cor 3:22-23). Christians long for the entire human family to call upon God as “Our Father!” In union with the only-begotten Son, may all people learn to pray to the Father and to ask him, in the words that Jesus himself taught us, for the grace to glorify him by living according to his will, to receive the daily bread that we need, to be understanding and generous towards our debtors, not to be tempted beyond our limits, and to be delivered from evil (cf. Mt 6:9-13).

[Dr. Eckleburg]

Go ahead and run with the big crowd down that highway through the wide gate. I'll stick with the few on the small dirt track and pass through that narrow gate.

Amen!

And yet I believe Christ spoke of a wheat field and not a tares field. Therefore I have hope even lost Romanists may find their way to Scriptural truths, if God so wills.

And if He so wills, they will do so by hearing the word of God preached in truth and light.

"And it came to pass, that, as the people pressed upon him to hear the word of God..." -- Luke 5:1

[evangmlw]

The problem faced with many Catholics is similar to that with Muslims. They’ve been taught the deception from birth, don’t know anything else, and cannot come to grips with the fact they may be wrong. It’s the worst kind of religion in the world and they are the most difficult to reach with the truth. Jesus was confronted with the same problem in dealing with the Pharisees. It’s a real tragedy how they are led off the cliff by birth. My wife and mother-in-law are former Catholics. They were born-again and left the catholic church. Over 18 years ago for my wife and 15 for my mother-in-law. They have never looked back! The praise His Holy Name, that “name that is above every name,” now instead of giving praises to the Pope.
http://www.rockycreekbaptist.org