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By the by, the urim and thummim were part of old testament rituals
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Welcome to FRee Republic, n00bie...

Kid, I’ve read your posts up to now...

It appears you came in swinging ...

Kill many windmills ???

Now since you took the time to mention the Urim and Thummim, lets look at why the ancient Hebrews used them...

1. Urim and Thummim... What they were...

Urim is mentioned in the Christian Bible in the Old Testament: Exodus 28:30, Leviticus 8:8, Numbers 27:21, Deuteronomy 33:8, 1 Samuel 28:6, Ezra 2:63, Nehemiah 7:65

There is no mention of Urim in the New Testament...

in the Hebrew...Uwriym means lights...they were the oracular brilliancy of the figures in the high priest’s breastplate..

from the root words owr and uwr...

owr...to be or to cause to make luminous (lit. and metaph.) break of day, glorious, kindle(be, en-, give, show) light (-en, -ened, set on fire, shine.)

uwr..flame, hence (in the plur) the East (as being the region of the light) fire, light.

Thummim is also mentioned only in the Old Testament, in some of the same scriptures: Exodus 28:30, Leviticus 8:8, Deuteronomy 33:8, Ezra 2:63, Nehemiah 7:65

Thummim in the Hebrew...Tummiym...perfections ie one of the epithets of the objects in the high priest’s breastplate as an emblem of complete truth - Thummim

From tom, tummah, ta’alummah, tamam and alam...

tom...completeness, fig. prosperity, usually innocence- full, intergrity, perfect, (-ion) simpicity, upright, (-ly, -ness) at a venture.

tummah (fem of tom) innocence, integrity

ta’alummah...a secret - thing that is hid, a secret.

tamam ...to complete, in a good or bad sense, accomplish, cease, be clean, consume, have done, be (make) perfecty, be spent, be (show self) upright, whole.

alam...to veil from sight, ie to conceal (lit or fig.) any ways, blind, dissembler, hide (self) secret (thing)

In the Septuagintor has many translations of which phos (light) is the most frequent. The noun ur means “shine”, light giving” (Vines Complete Expository dictionary, P136)

And guess what ??? That same word phos is used in the Greek to describe the LORD Jesus Christ in John

to shine or make manifest...espec by rays, luminousness, fire, light

and the Life was the LIGHT of man John 1:4

that was the true LIGHT John 1:9

Oh WOW doya know what that means ???

Well never you mind...

Nana is here to tell ya...

The LORD Jesus Christ is the Urim and the Thummim..

Now ya know who was on the breastplate of the high priest...

Now ya know just who was guiding the Hebrews...

Oh and besides that the LORD Jesus Christ was also that there Rock that went before them, the cloud by day, the pillar of fire etc.....

Jesus said to nando9 “I AM the Way, the TRUTH and the Life, John 14:6

Exciting aint it ???

Well on the high priest’s (Aaron) breastplate were the Urim and the Thummim (the LIGHT and the PERFECTION)

Insert the Urim and Thummim into the sacred chestpiece so they will be carried over Aaron’s heart when he goes into the LORD’s presence. In this way, Aaron will always carry over his heart the objects used to determine the LORD’s will for his people whenever he goes in before the LORD. Exodus 28:30

Then Moses placed the breastplate on Aaron and put the Urim and the Thummim inside of it. Leviticus 8:8

The breastplate was only worn by the high priest Aaron and his Levitical line sons..

No Gentile would have ever touched the Urim and the Thummim or the3 breastplate..

(No mormon is in the Levitical line...

2. If anyone other than Aaron and his sons touched them, they were to be slain...

(Do you have good documentation on the death of the Gentile Joey Smith for touching that which was forbidden ??? Of course you do...God slayed Joey Smith in June, 1844...he was lucky to get all those extra years...it was suppose to be instant death...)

3. The Urim and Thummin were never intended to make a Gentile like Joey Smith rich...they were intended only to judge and bless the people of the LORD God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob..

(Joey Smith is descended from Gentiles... not Abraham)

4. Was the Urim and the Thummim ever used later at any time...

Yes both Ezra and Nehemiah mention them when they were rebuilding the walls of Jerusalem..

The governor told them not to eat the priests’ share of food from the sacrifices until a priest could consult the LORD about the matter by using the Urim and Thummim—the sacred lots. Ezra 2:63, Nehemiah 7:65

(Since Joey Smith was not a Levitical priest he would not have been allowed by God to touch them...)

What is used now in place of the Urim and the Thummim to recieve direction from God now that the LORD Jesus Christ has returned to Heaven...

Jesus sent the 3rd Person of the Trinity, the Holy Ghost to be our guide, our Light, our Urim and Thummim, our Truth...

But when He, the Spirit of Truth, comes, He will guide you into all Truth He will not speak on His own but He will say only what He hears, and He will tell you what is yet to come. John 16:13

Disclaimer: This lesson was written for the spiritually poverty stricken n00b, nandy. nandy’s plight just broke Nana’s kind loving heart. No charge.

Hey nana. Spiritual noob here. Since you appear to be the scholar in these parts, I had to turn to others to question your interesting though philologically loosey-goosey treatise on what the Urim and Thummim were or weren’t.

There just so happens to be a book, authored by a scholar not connected in any way with those dang mormons, considered by other scholars to be the singular modern treatment of this topic. I’m sure you’ve read it, but just in case here is a short review by another not-dang mormon. You will find his conclusions quite fascinating, I’m sure, particularly as to their use in receiving and disseminating revelatory guidance and answers. Weird.

Urim and Thummim: A Means of Revelation in Ancient Israel, The
Journal of the Evangelical Theological Society, Sep 1999 Review by Harbin, Michael A

(The Urim and Thummim: A Means of Revelation in Ancient Israel. By Cornelis Van Dam. Winona Lake: Eisenbrauns, 1997, 296 pp., $34.50.)

“Urim” and “Thummim” (UT) are the Hebrew names for the object or objects used by the OT high priest to determine God’s will for the Israelites. Their actual identity has puzzled scholars for centuries. They are not described. Their method of use is not explained. The etymology of the terms is at best uncertain. Even their mention in the OT is somewhat haphazard. Still, scholarly consensus has concluded that they are some form of “lot oracle” and for that reason, no detailed study of the UT has appeared since 1824. Van Dam asserts, however, that the lot theory does not satisfy all of the evidence and undertakes a new exhaustive examination of the issue.

Van Dam begins with a study of the history of interpretation. He performs a topical overview, which surveys the various interpretations from the time of Philo to date and evaluates the different theories.

From this, Van Dam turns to the ancient Near East to explore possible analogues. First he explores lot oracles and notes that the use of lot oracles in the ancient Near East seems to be less common than supposed, and that there is no real analogy to the UT. The same is true with teraphim, which he covers very briefly as associated with the UT. He then examines in more detail analogies that have been proposed by region: Mesopotamia, Hatti, Ugarit, Egypt, Arabia and even China. While he notes items of dress in these cultures that may be compared to the ephod of the priest (which held the UT), he does not find any comparable method of revelation. With this foundation, he begins to repudiate the lot-oracle concept.

After a chapter on the history of translation, Van Dam arrives at the heart of his work, the biblical usages. He surveys the UT within the context of divine revelation in general and notes that God used a variety of methods to provide revelation to Israel, and encouraged the people to inquire of him for guidance. This was tempered with a stringent prohibition against divination of any type, specifically including teraphim and apparently lot oracles. Van Dam argues that the UT could not be lot oracles since on several of the occasions we find it used, the answers recorded exceed the possible yes/no responses of the lots.

Drawing upon the traditional translation of “light(s) and perfection(s)” evidenced in ancient Jewish tradition and the LXX, as well as the role performed by the high priest who was entrusted with the use of the UT, Van Dam concludes that the UT was used to validate a prophetic statement from the high priest as true revelation from God. He argues that the UT was some type of stone that would illuminate (with “true” or “perfect” light) when removed from the ephod to verify the divine source of a declaration (p. 224).

So, what happened to the UT? Here, Van Dam is more tentative. He concludes that the UT were not used after David, probably because of priestly unfaithfulness, although he also sees a role for increasing written revelation that supplanted the need for immediate revelation. Tied in with priestly unfaithfulness, he also notes a parallel increase in the prophetic office.

Although many questions are left unanswered, overall, this is an excellent survey of a very important, although obscure, facet of OT worship. Van Dam has provided a very thorough and readable compilation of the material available on the subject. His conclusions, although not completely new, are thought-provoking as they tie together the spiritual and physical realms.

Michael A. Harbin

Taylor University, Upland, IN