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Dear delacoert,

You haven't actually made the case yet that anyone is lying.

And, if it is lying for Mormons to sincerely believe their false beliefs and to relate them to others, then so it is lying for all non-Catholic/non-Orthodox “Christians” to sincerely believe their false beliefs and to relate them to others, including anything that differs with the infallible teaching of the Catholic Church, all of which teaching is objectively true.

sitetest

You haven't actually made the case yet that anyone is lying.

That you fail to acknowledge my explanations neither surprises nor offends me. It is a common tactic in these threads.

Whether out of ignorance, pretension, arrogant pedagogy, or whatever, I see that you don't see or refuse to see.

… all of which teaching [Mormon doctrine] is objectively true.

Ridiculous.

You haven't actually made the case yet that anyone is lying. And, if it is lying for Mormons to sincerely believe their false beliefs and to relate them to others...

Well I made the case that lying is involved. Just look at least #1, #2, and #4 as I responded in post #77. Instead of five this time, I'll cover three...and I'll add to the last one something I didn't include before.

Proofs addressing points #1, #2, and #4 'making the case' that confirms what this ex-Lds missionary has said -- that the Mormon church and its missionaries openly lie:

#1
Premise: If, before I come to your house, sitetest, I have written to many others of my faith that I consider you a potential "proselyte" and I tell others I am going over to your house to "proselytize"...
Actual presentation... for me to then say to your face that "I am not trying to convert you"... Conclusion: = a lie.

Now even you recognized this to some degree in your initial comment on this thread. You said then "except for possibly #1" they weren't lying. Even your-out-of-whack falsehood radar picked that one up...you just apparently lacked candidness to go beyond the "possibly" hesitant expression.

So now your "radar" is waffling and defending #1 as pure truth? Really?

#2

Reality: Mormon radio & TV ads have long presented the King James Bible as sufficient. It's been the ONE thing offered for free in those ads going back over 20 years. Therefore...

Choice A: ...either the Mormon church lied then, PR-wise if they presented it as "sufficient" yet in many other venues they conveyed it wasn't sufficient.
Or Choice B: Or, they've lied in presenting the MANY arguments they've made that it's insufficient.

I don't even have to quote you those quotes where Mormon leaders have torn down the trustworthiness of the Bible. Elsie certainly could post the Articles of Faith where Mormonism does that...but just knowing that Joseph Smith alone said that the KJV Bible needed to be "re-translated" from English to English due to "corrections" supposedly needed (he called it a "translation" not a paraphrase) is enough to tell you that Smith repeatedly conveyed that the KJV was inadequate as it was.

So...if you listened to the LDS PR people, the KJV was sufficient; if you listed to their general authorities, it was insufficient. Given the sheer hierarchical nature of the Mormon church, where you have a heavily controlled top-down structure, somebody wasn't telling the truth.

Skipping #3 let's move to #4:

Mormonism claims in its scriptures to be the only "true and living church on the face of the earth." (D&C 1:30) In order to substantiate this claim, they needed a simultaneous claim that the historic Christian church stopped existing legimately at a point approximately 1600-1700 years before the Mormon church was started, saying the church started by Jesus Christ fell into total apostasy.

It won't do any good for the Mormon church to allow for any other church to legitimately exist. (Otherwise, they are not necessary as a "restoration") So their claim hangs or falls ALL on the claims below lining up in perfect alignment in a tightrope I haven't seen beyond the Mormon church...

(a) The claim that Christian churches are 100% apostate...IOW, if they acknowledge even one true church that's been in existence between the alleged time of apostasy and their jumpstart, that alone proves two-faced deception...keep this one in mind for point (e) below;

(b) The claim that Jesus Christ either lied or was mistaken when Jesus claimed that the gates of Hades would not prevail or overcome His Church (Matt. 16:18)...meaning either Jesus was wrong -- or they were. Now you might say, "Well, saying Jesus was merely wrong isn't a lie." And yes, that is true. But Mormons go the extra step here and claim they are not calling Jesus either a liar or false prophet re: Matt. 16:18. They can't have their cake and eat it, too. They need to confess they are contradicting Jesus -- and if they are not they are hiding reality...

(c) The claim that the apostle Paul's prophesy of continuous glory given to God "in the church...in all generations forever and ever" was either a false prophesy -- or their contention that it stopped was...(Paul and the Mormon church cannot both be true in their claims)

(d) The Book of Mormon makes this claim in 2 Nephi 8:8, and it rings a bit similar to what was just covered in Eph. 3:21: For the moth shall eat them up like a garment, and the worm shall eat them like wool. But my righteousness shall be forever, and my salvation from generation to generation. (2 Nephi 8:8)

Now, you need to know that Mormons claim 2 Nephi was written in B.C. times. So tell us, Mormon “restorationists”: If...
...Nephi prophesied that salvation would occur sequentially from generation to generation...was Nephi a false prophet about this? You mean, the "generation to generation" salvation stopped for 1700 years? Really?

Therefore, when Mormon missionaries who are aware of 2 Nephi 8:8 -- OR, certainly their leaders who know this verse -- talk about the "universal apostasy" all in the same breath as claiming salvation has historically occurred "generation to generation," one of those two truth commitments has "to give" in that tug-of-war for truth.

(e) Remember here the backdrop for this consideration is that the Mormon church claims that the church on earth was in apostasy for umpteen hundred years before 1830.

In this consideration, we simply need to review the Mormon "scriptural" presentation of authoritative continuity.

Joseph Smith prophesied Sept. 22-23, 1832 that the “priesthood continueth in the church of God in ALL GENERATIONS, and is WITHOUT BEGINNING OF DAYS OR END OF YEARS. And the Lord confirmed a priesthood also upon Aaron and his seed, THROUGHOUT ALL GENERATIONS, WHICH PRIESTHOOD ALSO CONTINUETH FOREVER WITH THE PRIESTHOOD which is after the holiest order of God.” (D&C 84:17-18)

Therefore, if you take this coupled with Smith also prophesying in 1832 to 1832 Mormons that this “priesthood hath continued through the lineage of your fathers” (D&C 86:8) — and since almost all of the “fathers” of these 1832 Mormons were either Christian or pagan or deceased or whatever — but certainly were NOT Mormons...

...Then tell, us dear Mormons: On what grounds do you exclude the Christian Church from your dear exclusive priesthood club?

On what grounds, dear Mormons: Do you exclude us from being the true church (according to D&C 1:30)?

On what grounds, dear Mormons: Do you call us “apostates” who triggered a needy “restoration” of the gospel and the true Church?

n what grounds, dear Mormons: Did you claim that the “light of the gospel leading to salvation” was lost for a long period of time on earth?

By labeling us all as such, you openly consign Nephi, the apostle Paul and Joseph Smith to the garbage bin of false prophets!

Therefore, either Mormons are internally lying/covering up that they believe Smith is a false prophet, or more likely, they believe Smith was telling the truth in D&C 84:17-18; 86:8...which means they believe that the priesthood was rec'd via "the lineage of their fathers" (86:8) and this was a continuous priesthood passed down "throughout all generations" (84:17-18).

But if this was passed down to them by a faulty generational apostate priesthood, how are they legit? If they believe these D&C passages, therefore, then they are forced to conclude the Christian church was NOT "apostate" after all pre 1830 -- and their claims that we are apostates as the Christian church is a lie!

You haven't actually made the case yet that anyone is lying.

Here!

Let ME help!

KJV

Galatians 1:6-9

6. I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
7. Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
8. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
9. As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

ANYBODY???

Like this fine looking fellow???

2 Corinthians 11:12-15

12. But what I do, that I will do, that I may cut off occasion from them which desire occasion; that wherein they glory, they may be found even as we.
13. For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
14. And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
15. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

Like THESE guys??

http://scriptures.lds.org/en/js_h/1/19#19

17 It no sooner appeared than I found myself delivered from the enemy which held me bound. When the light rested upon me I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other—This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him!

Ephesians 2:1-2

1. And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

1 Corinthians 4:17
For this cause have I sent unto you Timotheus, who is my beloved son, and faithful in the Lord, who shall bring you into remembrance of my ways which be in Christ, as I teach every where in every church.

1 Corinthians 11:2
Now I praise you, brethren, that ye remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances, as I delivered them to you.

2 Thessalonians 2:15
Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

2 Timothy 1:13
Hold fast the form of sound words, which thou hast heard of me, in faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.

2 Timothy 3:14-15
14. But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;
15. And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

When I was in training to serve a Mormon mission, I was told not to mention or discuss or even admit to certain LDS doctrines. That is lying by omission. I was told to do this because ‘if we told the truth, no one would join’.

Furthermore, many former LDS missionaries admit that they either lied by omission or mislead investigators about LDS beliefs. This is often referred to as only giving the ‘preparatory gospel’ or ‘milk before meat’.

There is a lot of lying that goes on by LDS members, missionaries and leadership.