Dear Various Posters,
Again, not going for an exhaustive list - if your name isn't included, please don't take offense. I also addressed this post to a couple of posters whom I believe to be members of the LDS, as the development of this thread may be of interest to LDS folks.
Anyway, it's been a grand old time. I've read many of your posts (time and interest preclude a careful study of every post) and I remain unpersuaded. In fact, as we've argued it out, I'm less persuaded that it is reasonable to say that an adherent of a religion who affirms the tenets of his religion is a liar telling lies.
I'm sure that you continue in your view, as well. Which is, as far as I can tell, objectvely false. Are you now all liars? LOL.
This may be my last post to this thread. I feel like we're all starting to repeat ourselves. I read through a few of the responses to me after my last post, started to post, and realized that I'd been over the same ground before. If you didn't get it the first (or second) time, it's unlikely that further beating of the horse will bring it back to life.
I have posted in good will. Sadly, I can't say that I believe most of my respondents have done likewise at all times. If you seek to persuade, you're not even close. If you seek to bludgeon so that you can congratulate each other for how badly you treated the outsider, well, I have often felt bludgeoned in this thread, so I suppose then, if that's your goal, you will have succeeded.
To this Catholic poster, you have often seemed uncharitable and unreasoning. And shrill. Some of you are very shrill. I can see why the LDS folks pretty much despise you.
To this point, I've generally referred to “non-Catholic/non-Orthodox Christians.” Before I depart this thread, just a note on my own definition of that mouthful of a phrase. It means those who are validly baptized into a sect apart from the apostolic churches with valid apostolic succession, holy orders and Eucharist. As well, I prefer my Christians Trinitarian, but if non-Trinitarians enter the discussion, well, for the sake of discussion, I'll be a little fuzzy around the edges.
As a Catholic, I don't believe that members of the LDS fall into this group, “non-Catholic/non-Orthodox Christians,” as the Catholic Church doesn't recognize LDS baptism, and considers the LDS religion non-Christian. It has to do with the fundamentally different ontology of our God and theirs.
That being said, I've worked in the world of business for nearly thirty years, and have dealt with, done business with, worked for, employed, and had partners with a wide variety of persons, of many different backgrounds.
In nearly three decades, I've worked with a modest number of Mormons. I've done business with them, had them as team partners, had them as employees. In that time:
- I have never caught a Mormon in a lie. Ever.
- No Mormon has ever cheated or stolen from me.
- No Mormon has ever not fulfilled a business commitment to me.
- I have never, ever had to carry a Mormon team member because he didn't get his share (and more) of the work done in a timely, effective, and excellent manner.
- I have never regretted doing business with a Mormon.
Now, I don't live in Utah, but rather in the suburbs of DC. So, this isn't a predominantly-Mormon place. Maybe because they are not terribly common here, they feel that they must be good examples. Perhaps where Mormons are thick, there is less pressure to feel that way and act accordingly.
Conversely, I've done business with lots of folks who go under various monikers of “Christian.” My experience with most groups of Christians, whether Catholic, Orthodox, or some flavor of non-Catholic/non-Orthodox is that there's good folks, there's bad folks, there's smart folks, there's dumb folks, diligent, conscientious folks, lazy, uncaring folks, folks whose word is gold, folks whose word is mud. There are Catholics that I've hated and Methodists that I've loved.
In my life, I've also worked with Muslims, atheists, Buddhists, Hindus, Jews and others. These, too, were pretty much a thorough mix of good and bad.
All a big pile of everything.
With one exception. Calvinists. On a handful of occasions, I have had significant business dealings with self-identified rigorous, robust Calvinists. TULIP and all that. Sadly, none of these folks has failed to either lie to, cheat or steal from me. I have paid dearly at the hands of Calvinists. Total business losses to the lies, cheating and stealing by Calvinists range in the hundreds of thousands of dollars. Twice, Calvinists who cheated me or stole from me nearly drove me into personal financial ruin.
But other than that, folks are a pretty mixed bag.
I mention this comparison between Mormons and Christians and other non-Christians because it's relevant to this thread and the posts herein.
It is possible that at least some Mormons lie about religion. It's even possible that many or most Mormons do so lie.
But it cuts against my own personal experience of Mormons, and thus, your asserting it to be so doesn't persuade me in the least. If a practicing Mormon were to tell me that they lie about their religion, that would have credibility to me. But not a non-Mormon (especially if you're a Calvinist, LOL!) or even an ex-Mormon.
It may be that my own experiences are out of the ordinary, are outliers, are the exception, not the rule. But they're what I've got. And who am I going to believe, you or my lyin’ eyes? LOL.
Anyway, be well. No hard feelings on my part, all is forgiven on my part, forgive me my sins if you perceive me to have sinned against you.
I'll be kinda busy over the next few days, and as I said, I think we're all starting to repeat ourselves anyway, but I may look in at any replies to this post, and I may reply, especially if I think that we're saying something new, adding to the existing discussion.
For those of you who wish to reply with something to show my stupidity, cupidity, ignorance, or to otherwise reflect poorly on me, well, have at it and may God bless you! Remember, this is just the Internet, not your real life. Try not to take it too seriously, and I'll try the same thing, too.
God's blessing to all.
sitetest
