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To: boatbums; metmom
I did not quote the verses that contradict your misreading of the context of verses in James because I already have on this thread as have many others, plus I think you are already aware of those I am speaking of

I am aware of some spin to do with works being an automatic result from faith and that Paul said that works of the law do not say. None of that is satisfying as an answer, and I am sure if you posted your musings to me, I answered in that vain, and if you did not post your musings to me, please do so.

how you can read in one place that we are saved by faith alone

Where do I read that? There is no scripture that says "that we are saved by faith alone". That is the whole problem.

perhaps it is your own misreading of certain verses

In a dozenb verses that drive home the point, how can one "misread" " Do you see that by works a man is justified; and not by faith only?" (James 2:24).

I can easily make the claim that the Catholic Church has repeatedly invented doctrines that are denied in the Scripture, yet because you contend that they are "Holy Tradition" it ceases to matter that Scripture is contradicted by them.

Please make that claim, and I will respond by scripture alone, as I always respond to such claims. It is true that there are things we know from the Hoyl Tradition and not from the Holy Scripture alone, but if you claim that something that we teach contradicts scripture, show me.

I said your assertion of what James 2 says obliterates other Scripture passages

Which ones? This is your mythical "we are saved by faith alone" scripture that never surfaces up?

5,495 posted on 12/16/2010 7:12:41 PM PST by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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To: annalex; metmom
Which ones? This is your mythical "we are saved by faith alone" scripture that never surfaces up?

No, the only "myth" is the one you are following that will end up condemned because Jesus said "He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."(John 3:18) So the real question is: What does "believing in the name of Jesus" mean? I say, based on the complete Bible, both Old and New Testaments, that belief is relying upon, trusting in, having confidence in, to throw myself upon him, to have FAITH in him. All throughout the Bible we are given types of the coming Savior. God has never winked at or ignored sin but he has continually shown us just how sinful we really are. He constantly reminded people, especially the "religious" ones, just how holy he was and that unless we were as holy and righteous as he is, we could never be in his presence. Not for a minute and certainly not for all eternity.

The sin problem is then that we are sinners loved by Holy God who is perfectly holy and perfectly just. Because of that great love for us he has provided a way for us to be with him in a way that both satisfies his perfect justice and that makes us as holy as he is.

What I think has been our basic difference on this matter is "How does a person attain that perfection God has provided so that we can be with him in heaven?".

You state "it is by grace through faith and good works". A person, in your example, must have faith but must also perform good deeds and refrain from sin. You also say that good works can be canceled out by sin such as committing a "mortal sin" and not following the prescribed remedy which is repentance, confession and due penance. Also the "good works" you say are required include many acts, beliefs and states of mind which include complete obedience to the "Church" and her proclaimed dogmas and doctrines. In this way of thinking, sin can actually cancel out the grace of God and whatever faith we placed in it in addition to any good deeds we may have done before we died.

Getting back to the original question of how we attain the perfection God has provided us, my belief is that God, through his grace, has provided the payment for all our sins through the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ, who, as God incarnate took upon himself the sins of all mankind - past, present and future. We know from Scripture that "Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just (him) for the unjust (us), that he might bring us to God" (I Peter 3:18). All our own righteousnesses are as "filthy rags" compared to his own for us, so from that I realize that my good deeds, my good works as somehow being held at the same level or the same worth as what Christ has done for us is purely illogical. To hold that grace through faith is not enough if it doesn't also include our efforts negates the whole meaning of grace. It actually make the cross of no accord, Christ has died in vain if we can be justified by our works. When I placed my trust, faith, confidence in Jesus Christ, I came to God with empty hands. I admitted that I was a sinner in need of mercy and grace because that was the only way. I fell upon his throne of grace and through faith I was lifted up by him. He adopted me into his family. He filled me with his own Holy Spirit - which is his seal upon me for all eternity. I was saved, justified, made holy by his blood. Nothing will ever separate me from him. (Rom. 8:38)

So we in the end have two different people. One says he has faith but he also tries his best to follow all the rules out of fear that he may lose Heaven. The other has faith and follows the rules out of gratitude and love because she knows she is held in his hands where he will never lose her, he will never cast her out. Everyone must make that decision which person they want to be. But only one is really saved because what the first person has failed to realize is that he has never really put is faith in Christ, he thinks he has but it may only have been partial, it is not all. And God wants ALL.

5,497 posted on 12/16/2010 9:04:02 PM PST by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to him.)
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To: annalex; boatbums; metmom
Please make that claim, and I will respond by scripture alone, as I always respond to such claims. It is true that there are things we know from the Hoyl Tradition and not from the Holy Scripture alone, but if you claim that something that we teach contradicts scripture, show me.

ROMANS 3:
20* For no human being will be justified in his sight by works of the law, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.
21* But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from law, although the law and the prophets bear witness to it,
22* the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction;
23* since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
24* they are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus,
25 whom God put forward as an expiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins;
26* it was to prove at the present time that he himself is righteous and that he justifies him who has faith in Jesus.
27 Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On the principle of works? No, but on the principle of faith.
28* For we hold that a man is justified by faith apart from works of law.

Did Paul exclude Mary!

How does Paul differ from your interpretation of "works" and "faith"?

5,524 posted on 12/17/2010 9:00:00 AM PST by OLD REGGIE (I am a Biblical Unitarian?)
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