Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

To: annalex; metmom
Which ones? This is your mythical "we are saved by faith alone" scripture that never surfaces up?

No, the only "myth" is the one you are following that will end up condemned because Jesus said "He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."(John 3:18) So the real question is: What does "believing in the name of Jesus" mean? I say, based on the complete Bible, both Old and New Testaments, that belief is relying upon, trusting in, having confidence in, to throw myself upon him, to have FAITH in him. All throughout the Bible we are given types of the coming Savior. God has never winked at or ignored sin but he has continually shown us just how sinful we really are. He constantly reminded people, especially the "religious" ones, just how holy he was and that unless we were as holy and righteous as he is, we could never be in his presence. Not for a minute and certainly not for all eternity.

The sin problem is then that we are sinners loved by Holy God who is perfectly holy and perfectly just. Because of that great love for us he has provided a way for us to be with him in a way that both satisfies his perfect justice and that makes us as holy as he is.

What I think has been our basic difference on this matter is "How does a person attain that perfection God has provided so that we can be with him in heaven?".

You state "it is by grace through faith and good works". A person, in your example, must have faith but must also perform good deeds and refrain from sin. You also say that good works can be canceled out by sin such as committing a "mortal sin" and not following the prescribed remedy which is repentance, confession and due penance. Also the "good works" you say are required include many acts, beliefs and states of mind which include complete obedience to the "Church" and her proclaimed dogmas and doctrines. In this way of thinking, sin can actually cancel out the grace of God and whatever faith we placed in it in addition to any good deeds we may have done before we died.

Getting back to the original question of how we attain the perfection God has provided us, my belief is that God, through his grace, has provided the payment for all our sins through the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ, who, as God incarnate took upon himself the sins of all mankind - past, present and future. We know from Scripture that "Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just (him) for the unjust (us), that he might bring us to God" (I Peter 3:18). All our own righteousnesses are as "filthy rags" compared to his own for us, so from that I realize that my good deeds, my good works as somehow being held at the same level or the same worth as what Christ has done for us is purely illogical. To hold that grace through faith is not enough if it doesn't also include our efforts negates the whole meaning of grace. It actually make the cross of no accord, Christ has died in vain if we can be justified by our works. When I placed my trust, faith, confidence in Jesus Christ, I came to God with empty hands. I admitted that I was a sinner in need of mercy and grace because that was the only way. I fell upon his throne of grace and through faith I was lifted up by him. He adopted me into his family. He filled me with his own Holy Spirit - which is his seal upon me for all eternity. I was saved, justified, made holy by his blood. Nothing will ever separate me from him. (Rom. 8:38)

So we in the end have two different people. One says he has faith but he also tries his best to follow all the rules out of fear that he may lose Heaven. The other has faith and follows the rules out of gratitude and love because she knows she is held in his hands where he will never lose her, he will never cast her out. Everyone must make that decision which person they want to be. But only one is really saved because what the first person has failed to realize is that he has never really put is faith in Christ, he thinks he has but it may only have been partial, it is not all. And God wants ALL.

5,497 posted on 12/16/2010 9:04:02 PM PST by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to him.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5495 | View Replies ]


To: boatbums; metmom
What does "believing in the name of Jesus" mean? I say, based on the complete Bible, both Old and New Testaments, that belief is relying upon, trusting in, having confidence in, to throw myself upon him, to have FAITH in him

Well, the Protestants don't have the complete Bible and they do not read what they do have in the light of the patristic tradition, so on that score your faith is not complete. Most strikingly, you don't believe in the words of the Holy Scripture that tell you that good works are necessary for salvation alongside faith, and that you are not saved by faith alone. So your faith, although it retains some Christian principles, is defective.

You state "[salvation] is by grace through faith and good works". A person, in your example, must have faith but must also perform good deeds and refrain from sin. You also say that good works can be canceled out by sin such as committing a "mortal sin" and not following the prescribed remedy which is repentance, confession and due penance. Also the "good works" you say are required include many acts, beliefs and states of mind which include complete obedience to the "Church" and her proclaimed dogmas and doctrines. In this way of thinking, sin can actually cancel out the grace of God and whatever faith we placed in it in addition to any good deeds we may have done before we died

Good summary.

my belief is that God, through his grace, has provided the payment for all our sins

The Redemption obtained by Jesus on the Cross is alone sufficient to all sins past present and future. That part is true.

All our own righteousnesses are as "filthy rags" compared to his own for us, so from that I realize that my good deeds, my good works as somehow being held at the same level or the same worth as what Christ has done for us is purely illogical. To hold that grace through faith is not enough if it doesn't also include our efforts negates the whole meaning of grace

No one says your good works are on the "same level" as the salvific work of Christ. Neither does the New Testament call anyone "filthy rags", -- basing your misanthropy on that is a result of uncritical and un-Christian Old Testament literalism, against which Jesus advised (Mt 5:21-22, for example). However, the scripture does say that your good works are necessary for your salvation (Matthew 25:31-46, Romans 2:6-10, many direct appeals to do good and avoid evil). So if you believe in Christ, do what He tells you: strive for perfection (Matthew 5:48), forgive others (Matthew 6:14), do works of kindness (Matthew 5-7) do penance (Acts 2:38). The smug concept that because Christ's grace is sufficient nothing is required of you is foreign to the gospel. "Why call you me, Lord, Lord; and do not the things which I say?" (Luke 6:46). "[I] rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up those things that are wanting of the sufferings of Christ, in my flesh, for his body, which is the church" (Col. 1:24).

Nothing will ever separate me from him

Nothing except you yourself through your own deeds or lack of them.

One says he has faith but he also tries his best to follow all the rules out of fear that he may lose Heaven. The other has faith and follows the rules out of gratitude and love because she knows she is held in his hands where he will never lose her, he will never cast her out

It is better to obey the gospel out of fear of losing one's salvation than not obey it at all. It is even better to obey the Gospel out of love for your Savior. One thing does not exclude the other. A Catholic Christian starts with the former and proceeds to the latter. The once-saved-always-saved are not even on that road; they, thanks to the Protestant charlatans that teach them convinced themselves to stay on the sidelines

6,093 posted on 12/28/2010 6:21:42 PM PST by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5497 | View Replies ]

Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article


FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson