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To: Belteshazzar
Well, I wasn't the one who made up a slogan "semper reformanda" i.e. "always reforming"

And, come on, you have to admit that that
1. The first reformer, Luther and his church remain pretty close to orthodoxy, believing in the True Presence, indeed in everything that is there in the Nicene Creed (which I believe is a clear distinguisher between Christians and non-Christians)
2. However, by quoting sola scriptura, he did open a can of worms -- which Luther himself said made each man chose his own snippings from the bible(can't find the quote but Luther despaired that some denied the true presence, some denied baptism for infants, some even denied the Trinity) -- I do not believe that was Luther's aim in any way, but that is what happened
3. By keeping the same policy of always reforming, you had Calvinist's come and then Zwingli's folks come and deny the true presence, then anabaptists deny infant baptism, then unitarians deny the Trinity.
4. You take one case -- the idea of errors in the Church that Luther pointed out, this became in Calvinism a long standing fault (for centuries) and the Baptists came up with the idea that everything was wrong from 300 AD or earlier (and there was a hidden group of folks from Cathars to Marcionites and Donatists -- notwithstanding that each of these belived something completely different from the other and some were Gnostics (Cathars)). This was finally expounded in Mormon doctrine of the Great Apostasy where the Mormons say "everyone was wrong since Jesus" and Christianity was only rediscovered by J Smith.



This is where the semper reformanda idea leads to -- always changing, twisting etc

While the earliest reformed Churchs are so definitely Christian (Nicene Creed), you can't call the latest groups as Christians (JWs, OPC, etc.)
3,926 posted on 12/01/2010 3:02:30 AM PST by Cronos (Et Verbum caro factum est et habitavit in nobis (And the word was made flesh, and dwelt amonst us))
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To: Cronos

Semper reformanda as a “slogan” is not Lutheran. Semper reformanda as an idea is Lutheran. But it does not mean what you say. Semper reformanda is to the Christian Church what a repentant life is to the Christian. Just as the individual in this life is to be continually returning to the Lord sorrowing over his sins and desiring God’s forgiveness and strengthening so that he might live before God as His true child, so too is the church on earth (which is composed of nothing but repentant children of God) to be continually returning to the foundation of the Apostles and Prophets in order to examine herself, her doctrines and her practice, to see that they are in accord with God’s revealed will.

Real Lutherans subscribe unconditionally to the Lutheran Confessions, that is, to the Book of Concord of 1580, which is composed of the three Ecumenical Creeds, the Augsburg Confession, the Apology (Defense) of the Augsburg Confession, the Small Catechism, the Large Catechism, the Smalcald Articles, the Treatise on the Power and Primacy of the Pope, and the Formula of Concord. These confessions are understood to be the “norma normata” of Christian doctrine because they are draw from that which is the “norma normans,” i.e., the only source and norm of Christian doctrine, the Holy Scriptures of the Old and New Testament. Far from being “ever changing,” this is ever returning to the doctrine that never changes.

There is no modification of the Book of Concord. Truth remains truth.


3,981 posted on 12/01/2010 9:48:43 AM PST by Belteshazzar
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