In Christ Alone (Happy reformation day)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ExnTlIM5QgE ^ | Getty, Julian Keith; Townend, Stuart Richard;

[RnMomof7]

In Christ Alone lyrics

Songwriters: Getty, Julian Keith; Townend, Stuart Richard;

In Christ alone my hope is found He is my light, my strength, my song This Cornerstone, this solid ground Firm through the fiercest drought and storm

What heights of love, what depths of peace When fears are stilled, when strivings cease My Comforter, my All in All Here in the love of Christ I stand

In Christ alone, who took on flesh Fullness of God in helpless Babe This gift of love and righteousness Scorned by the ones He came to save

?Til on that cross as Jesus died The wrath of God was satisfied For every sin on Him was laid Here in the death of Christ I live, I live

There in the ground His body lay Light of the world by darkness slain Then bursting forth in glorious Day Up from the grave He rose again

And as He stands in victory Sin?s curse has lost its grip on me For I am His and He is mine Bought with the precious blood of Christ

[caww]

Christianity is alone that claims that her tradition is a historical fact,

That is a lie....the scriptures are very clear about following the "traditions of men"... Jesus warns Christians time and again not to do so..... But you can certainly state that catholicism does claim 'their traditions' as a historical fact. Don't confuse the difference.

[metmom]

Why do Protestants wave their hands in the air like those Khalimar worshipers in "Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom"? Are they making sure God "sees" them? Trying to get his attention?

I don't know. You'll have to ask them. Maybe they're just being obedient.....

1 Timothy 2:8 I desire then that in every place the men should pray, lifting holy hands without anger or quarreling;

[caww]

The entire knowledge of anything to do with Jesus Christ comes from the Hoyl Tradition. No...the scriptures themselves state they are the Revelation of Jesus Christ....never tradition.

One example the very book of Revelations begins:

"The revelation of Jesus Christ which God gave to His servants...." rev.1:1

One can see Christ on every page....the whole Bible breaths His coming...His arrival.. His teachings, mission and life... and His one day coming again. It's all about Him.

[Gamecock]

Been on FR a long time, this is the way it always works out:
Catholics question Prods for things seen in Scripture.
Prods question Catholics about man made tradition that often contradicts Scripture.

[metmom]

The Church sets apart (ordains) people who "hear the call" as the ones who make the bloodless offering instead of Jesus personally, in place of Christ, as an icon of Christ.

Bloodless offering? Really?

Without the shedding of blood, there is no remission of sins.

If it's a bloodless offering, then why teach that the cup becomes the blood of Christ?

And *offering*????

The priest is offering Christ? Jesus laid down His life of His own accord. Nobody took it from him. Nobody offered Him on an altar as if He were some kind of animal to be slaughtered several times a day in the mass.

Hebrews 10 1For since the law has but a shadow of the good things to come instead of the true form of these realities, it can never, by the same sacrifices that are continually offered every year, make perfect those who draw near. 2Otherwise, would they not have ceased to be offered, since the worshipers, having once been cleansed, would no longer have any consciousness of sins? 3But in these sacrifices there is a reminder of sins every year. 4For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.

5Consequently, when Christ came into the world, he said,

"Sacrifices and offerings you have not desired, but a body have you prepared for me; 6in burnt offerings and sin offerings you have taken no pleasure. 7Then I said, 'Behold, I have come to do your will, O God, as it is written of me in the scroll of the book.'"

8When he said above, "You have neither desired nor taken pleasure in sacrifices and offerings and burnt offerings and sin offerings" (these are offered according to the law), 9then he added, "Behold, I have come to do your will." He does away with the first in order to establish the second. 10And by that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

11And every priest stands daily at his service, offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, 13waiting from that time until his enemies should be made a footstool for his feet. 14For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.

15And the Holy Spirit also bears witness to us; for after saying, 16 "This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my laws on their hearts, and write them on their minds,"

17then he adds,

"I will remember their sins and their lawless deeds no more."

18Where there is forgiveness of these, there is no longer any offering for sin.

The whole priesthood and sacrifice of the mass goes against Scripture, as does so much Catholic doctrine.

[metmom]

Netmom:[sic] [posts Galationas 1:1-23 without any comment]

Metmom thinks Scripture can speak for itself.

Metmom also realizes that even if she did comment on the passage, that she'd be told that she was wrong in her interpretation, as she usually is told so, so commentary was also not necessary.

[caww]

Why do Protestants wave their hands in the air.

Humm-mmm. I'd guess some are more excitable or uninhibited enough to feel free to do that. I don't have a problem with others doing so as I think there are some who are sincerely worshipping Christ in that way...but I do think it can be distracting for those who don't do so..I am one who doesn't. Still there is a time and place where rejoicing in the Lord is acceptable. Christ accepts that as scripture clearly shows....nothing to do with traditions...some churches do...others don't..and some do both and all in between.

[caww]

Do you see that by works a man is justified; and not by faith only?

Daniel posted a great post on this question and how the confusion comes about between 'works which follow faith'in Christ...and those 'works which', some believe,' are required for salvation'. There is a great difference. An understanding of this does clarify much.

[annalex]

Thus while “works of the law” are disallowed as salvific, Rome attributes salvific merit to works of faith

First, thank you for a thoughtful response. It is cogent posts like this that make my participation in this thread a joy.

Yes, that is a correct summary. Works done in obedience of law (Jewish or otherwise) or for social gain (e.g. "to boast", Eph.2:9), or for wages, do not count toward salvation, even though they can contribute to it indirectly by avoiding sin in cases where sin is also a crime. Works of faith otherwise known as works of love or works of charity, often referred to by the Scripture as "good works" have a direct salvific effect.

other texts do not specify works of the law, but broadly refers to works, which it sets in contrast to faith

Well, that would not be surprising given that works are not exactly the same as faith, even though passages like Hebrews 11 or James 2 explain that at least true faith is inseparable from good works. But let us see what examples you cite.

Rm. 7:12

... simply says that the law is just and good, I don't see any reference to works in general here. It is our presumption that a law is always aiming at something good, or at forbidding something bad, is it not?

Gal. 3:21

Let me quote that passage:

[21] Was the law then against the promises of God? God forbid. For if there had been a law given which could give life, verily justice should have been by the law. [22] But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise, by the faith of Jesus Christ, might be given to them that believe. [23] But before the faith came, we were kept under the law shut up, unto that faith which was to be revealed. [24] Wherefore the law was our pedagogue in Christ, that we might be justified by faith. [25] But after the faith is come, we are no longer under a pedagogue.

Here law in its pedagogical value is contrasted to faith. I don't see good works being contrasted to faith.

while the “righteousness of the law” is never abrogated. (Rm. 8:4)

Indeed, see my comment above. The work of the law are not salvific, that is one obeying the law simply because it is law may be avoiding certain sins, but other than that he is not advancing his sanctification and therefore is not advancing his salvation. He simply does, like the unfaithful servant, "what is required of him" (Luke 17:7-10).

I do not see an example of "other texts do not specify works of the law, but broadly refers to works, which it sets in contrast to faith" anywhere here.

The key difference as I see it between this and what Catholicism teaches is that it is not by any “merit of works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us,” (Titus 3:5) not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began. (2Tim. 1:9)

How is that not what Catholicism teaches? Christ did not indeed to to the Cross because we were righteous or law-abiding. He did so because He is God and God loves us and all He creates. None of that negates the need for us to love God back, and indeed "faith without works is dead" (James 2:17-26), and we must "excel in good works" (Titus 3:8, the same passage that reiterates that "works of justice do not save us" (one you cite, verse 5).

You also cite 2Tim. 1:9 and, of course there, as well, the same thought is expressed: that while God saved us and, in that case, gave some of us the calling of episcopacy, "according to his own purpose and grace", we must have a response: "labour with the gospel, according to the power of God" and "stir up the grace of God which is in [us]", "[in the] spirit of power, and of love, and of sobriety" (2 Tim 1:6-9).

So no, I do not see a prooftext of faith and good works being "either one or the other". Each passage you cite affirms the Catholic teaching: The sovereign purpose of God is love for us; works of the law (or works of justice) do not have a salvific merit; works of faith or good works done in the spirit of love are a necessary part of our response to grace. "By works faith [is] made perfect" (James 2:22).

your statement cannot necessarily say is that Protestant theology leads one to eternal damnation

Of course, and as you rightly note, that is not the Catholic position at all. Man can be sanctified by the diligent study of the scripture, and therefore can be saved. what your statement implies is that Catholicism manifests a greater degree of grace, which is her stance, while the multitudes of those who left Catholicism for Evangelical churches (which has far more been the case than the opposite), testifies otherwise

Indeed. The fullness of faith is inthe Catholic faith. As I stated many times, one who seriously and attentively studies the Hoyl Scripture will perhaps not become a Roman Rite Catholic (for that one would also need certain esthetic preference), and perhaps he would not even become formally a Catholic but rather join an Eastern Orthodox Church. But even in becoming Orthodox rather than formally Catholic he will embrace the Catholic theology and most congenial to him Catholic praxis.

What do the numbers of conversions mean? Not much. In 4c the Christendom was overwhelmingly Arian. Today, the Protestant, especially Evangelical theology caters very well to the mentality of a middle class American. I am surpised anyone in the Western world, except few nuts like me, remains Catholic, yet in my Church it is standing room only unless you come early, and the faithful spill over to the narthex on holidays. We are doing amazingly well for a medieval institution.

[caww]

Excellant post! Powerful Scriptures!

Noting over and over and over...."One time"...

"once" been cleansed .......

sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ "once" for all......

Christ had offered for all time a "single sacrifice" for sins.......

by a "single offering" he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified....

"Where there is forgiveness of these, ".....there is no longer any offering for sin."

[caww]

This is not the post of Daniel’s I was refering to. I will try and find it though.

[annalex]

I went to many Evangleical Churches with my formerly Evangelical wife, and while theologically it looked deeply flawed, and liturgically insignificant, I agree that the Evangelicals as people are a very nice people and often seem to be touched by genuine grace. I also see how a quintessentuially Evangelical experience of misanthropic self-effacing "me, filthy rags", followed by the bolt of lightning proclamation "I have been saved!" -- be transformational.

I also agree that if one talks to a regular Evengelical about his faith in matters of immediate importance to him, -- moral life, etc., -- A Catholic will not find anything to argue about. The Evangelical distinctives: the total depravity of man, the irresistibility of grace, the limited atonement -- are all, to a Catholic mind, some kind of German philosophical voodoo, that is far from the Gospel and makes little sense, but luckily is not something anyone can really practice. And we are very much about practice. So far, no Evengelical Church taught its flock to do bad works, although I think that that three-car-garage-prosperity gospel guy comes close.

The issue is what perfection means, and its attainment.

Yes, it is. See the Church is here as a hand of God. The Catholics do not think they are saved by being nice people anymore that Protestants do. It is by that hand, to which I bow every Sunday, that hand that holds Him and puts Him in my mouth that I am saved. I want that for everybody. So, read the Holy Scripture adn remember Who gave it to you, -- and reach the right conclusion, please.

[metmom]

In regard to raising of hands....

Romans 14

1As for the one who is weak in faith, welcome him, but not to quarrel over opinions. 2 One person believes he may eat anything, while the weak person eats only vegetables. 3Let not the one who eats despise the one who abstains, and let not the one who abstains pass judgment on the one who eats, for God has welcomed him. 4 Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another? It is before his own master that he stands or falls. And he will be upheld, for the Lord is able to make him stand.

5 One person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. 6The one who observes the day, observes it in honor of the Lord. The one who eats, eats in honor of the Lord, since he gives thanks to God, while the one who abstains, abstains in honor of the Lord and gives thanks to God. 7For none of us lives to himself, and none of us dies to himself. 8For if we live, we live to the Lord, and if we die, we die to the Lord. So then, whether we live or whether we die, we are the Lord’s. 9For to this end Christ died and lived again, that he might be Lord both of the dead and of the living.

10Why do you pass judgment on your brother? Or you, why do you despise your brother? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God; 11for it is written,

“As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me,
and every tongue shall confess to God.”

12So then each of us will give an account of himself to God.

13 Therefore let us not pass judgment on one another any longer, but rather decide never to put a stumbling block or hindrance in the way of a brother. 14I know and am persuaded in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself, but it is unclean for anyone who thinks it unclean. 15For if your brother is grieved by what you eat, you are no longer walking in love. By what you eat, do not destroy the one for whom Christ died. 16 So do not let what you regard as good be spoken of as evil. 17 For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking but of righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. 18Whoever thus serves Christ is acceptable to God and approved by men. 19So then let us pursue what makes for peace and for mutual upbuilding.

20 Do not, for the sake of food, destroy the work of God. Everything is indeed clean, but it is wrong for anyone to make another stumble by what he eats. 21 It is good not to eat meat or drink wine or do anything that causes your brother to stumble. 22The faith that you have, keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the one who has no reason to pass judgment on himself for what he approves. 23But whoever has doubts is condemned if he eats, because the eating is not from faith. For whatever does not proceed from faith is sin.

[count-your-change]

“The whole priesthood and sacrifice of the mass goes against Scripture, as does so much Catholic doctrine.”

But..But..But..what about the “church fathers”, councils, traditions????

[Kolokotronis]

"Two and a half to three hours of standing...amazingly, one doesn't feel it, even elderly folks stand."

I'm back. I spent the liturgy robed and inside the altar and then did the prayers with the priest after the Liturgy as he consumed the remaining Gifts. It was nice. The Liturgy of +Basil the Great has some beautiful prayers. The following is from the Holy Anaphora:

"For Saint John the prophet, forerunner, and baptist; for the holy, glorious, and most; honorable ; apostles; for Saint(s) (Name;s), whose memory we commemorate today; and for all Your saints, through whose supplications, O God, visit us. Remember also all who have fallen asleep in the hope of the resurrection to eternal life (here the priest commemorates the names of the deceased) . And grant them rest, our God, where the light of Your countenance shines. Again, we pray to You, be mindful of Your holy, catholic, and apostolic Church, which is from one end of the inhabited earth to the other. Grant peace to her which You have obtained with the precious blood of Your Christ. Strengthen also this holy house to the end of the ages. Remember, Lord, those who have brought You these gifts, and for whom and through whom and the intentions for which they were offered. Remember, Lord, those who bear fruit and do good works in Your holy churches, and those who remember the poor. Reward them with Your rich and heavenly gifts. Grant them in return for earthly things, heavenly gifts; for temporal, eternal; for corruptible, incorruptible. Remember, Lord, those who are in the deserts, on mountains, in caverns, and in the chambers of the earth. Remember, Lord, those living in chastity and godliness, in asceticism and holiness of life. Remember, Lord, this country and all those in public service whom you have allowed to govern on earth. Grant them profound and lasting peace. Speak to their hearts good things concerning your Church and all your people that through the faithful conduct of their duties we may live peaceful and serene lives in all piety and holiness. Sustain the good in their goodness; make the wicked good through Your goodness. Remember, Lord, the people here presented and those who are absent with good cause. Have mercy on them and on us according to the multitude of Your mercy. Fill their treasuries with every good thing; preserve their marriages in peace and harmony; nurture the infants; instruct the youth; strengthen the aged; give courage to the faint hearted; reunite those separated; bring back those in error and unite them to Your holy, catholic, and apostolic Church. Free those who are held captive by unclean spirits; sail with those who sail; travel with those who travel; defend the widows; protect the orphans; liberate the captives; heal the sick. Remember, Lord, those who are in mines, in exile, in harsh labor, and those in every kind of affliction, necessity, or distress; those who entreat your loving kindness; those who love us and those who hate us; those who have asked us to pray for them, unworthy though we may be. Remember, Lord our God, all Your people, and pour out Your rich mercy upon them, granting them their petitions for salvation. Remember, O God, all those whom we have not remembered through ignorance, forgetfulness or because of their multitude since You know the name and age of each, even from their mother's womb. For You, Lord, are the helper of the helpless, the hope of the hopeless, the savior of the afflicted, the haven of the voyager, and the physician of the sick. Be all things to all, You who know each person, his requests, his household, and his need. Deliver this community and city, O Lord, and every city and town, from famine, plague, earthquake, flood, fire, sword, invasion of foreign enemies, and civil war."

And this Dismissal is prayed only from sundown on December 31 through tomorrow to sundown: O Christ, our God, accept from those who call upon You with all their heart this spiritual sacrifice without the shedding of blood as a sacrifice of praise and true worship. You are the Lamb and Son of God who bears the sins of the world; the blameless calf who does not accept the yoke of sin and who freely sacrificed Yourself for us. You are broken but not divided. You are consumed but never spent. You sanctify those who partake of you. In remembrance of Your voluntary passion and life-giving resurrection on the third day, You have made us partakers of Your ineffable and heavenly and awesome mysteries of Your holy Body and precious Blood. Preserve us, Your servants, those who minister, our leaders, the armed forces, and the people present here, in Your holiness. Grant that we may meditate upon Your righteousness at all times and in every season. Guide us and our actions so that we may do what is pleasing to You, and may You find us worthy to stand at Your right hand when You return to judge the living and the dead. Deliver our brothers and sisters who are in captivity, visit those who are sick, protect those who are in danger at sea, and give rest to the souls of all those who have fallen asleep in the hope of the eternal life where the light of Your face shines. Hear the petitions of all those who beseech You for Your help. For You are the giver of all good things, and to You we give glory, together with Your eternal Father and Your all holy, good, and life giving Spirit, now and forever and to the ages of ages." God stuff; great way to start a new year.

[count-your-change]

“Once” doesn’t seem to be such a complicated word. Are you sure it doesn’t mean on the installment basis? Or “Once today, once tomorrow...once here, once there...” and so forth?

[metmom]

*once* doesn’t necessitate the perpetuation of the priesthood.

[caww]

Wishing I was witty enough for a comeback on that..ha!

[Quix]

The entire knowledge of anything to do with Jesus Christ comes from the Hoyl [sic] Tradition.
Parts of it also are in the scripture
otehr [sic] parts aren't.
There is enough
in the Holy Scripture
to reasonably conclude that
she was sinless all her life,

Evidently HOYL TRADITION
is that specialized,
vulcanized,
fantasized,
politicized,
propagandized,
ROMANticized,
manufactured,
pretend history
bureaucratically created
and magicsterically vetted
around the time of the
Roman Catholic Church's creation
300-400 AD.


I wonder to what degree the
authentic Mary's aware of such
farcical notions
and whether
she guffaws more at them
or cries grievingly over the
horror of them.

[Quix]

There are some verses which seem to indicate that as an instruction from God.

Many seem to ignore HIS preference in such matters.