I’ll put my comments in italics, to try and reduce confusion.
“The logical implications of this are as follows:” -If we are going to use logic then game on... all logic is going to prove is the need for Latter-day Prophets and Revelation. Didn’t you read in the New Testament that among the body of believers, God’s Spirit gives gifts to do these very tasks, teaching, revealing, prophesy on rare occasions? Didn’t you read the instances of these traits/gifts of the Spirit illustrated in the New Testament? Jesus is our High Priest and our eternal Prophet, killer. Read the Acts of the Apostles and especially the conversion of Saul again.
“The Mormon doctrine of eternal progression teaches that God the Father was once a man, (John 5:19 - Jesus didn’t do anything except what he saw The Father do, Jesus has a body meaning the Father also has a body. Jesus was born therefore His Father was born too.) You depart from logic with an opinion not substantiated by anything in evidence, and in fact the Bible says God is Spirit and must be worshiped in spirit and truth. You’re not hitting very straight, killer.
“...who progressed to Godhood through obedience to certain laws and ordinances.” (John 3:5, 7:17, 14:15 Part of this obedience involved getting married to a woman,(He certainly wasn’t to be married to a man) Given the LDS stance against homosexual marriage, one would think a good Mormon would be good enough not to make such a nasty, bordering on blasphemy remark, but then we do have a history of your snarking at FR to refer to so we see you are staying within character. And it might occur to readers that you just affirmed your belief that God The Father Almighty had a wife or wives … again, not a Christian concept and antithetical to Judaeo-Chrsitian belief as taught in the Bible.
“The Heavenly Mother”, who gives birth to God’s spirit children, who are sent to earth to inhabit bodies of flesh and bone. These spirit children, if they are Mormons, remain obedient to the laws of the Mormon Church(The True Church) (John 14:15), and are married in the Mormon temple, have the potential to become gods themselves. They will produce spirit children and rule their own planet. This process is then repeated.” -Are you or the author suggesting that we have everything that was uttered by Jesus Christ in the Bible and that there are or never were any other records of His Divine Ministry? I can’t wait to hear your explanation of that. You ask a question oblique to the passage you appear to disagree with. Try to stay on message if you think you’re refuting the facts offered in the essay. And again, by avoiding the actual issue in the essay, you give agreement to the premise it exposed, namely that Mormons believe God has wives and children and progressed to godhood from some lesser state of existence. Since the god of mormonism would have had a god while he was in mortal existence 'progressing' you've affirmed that Momronism is polytheistic since your MORMON DOCTRINE of eternal progression cannot happen without polytheism at its roots.
This type of “informed work” can be demonstrated against Christianity from an other than Christian perspective too. e.g. you mean to tell me that a virgin gave birth to a baby who then performed all kinds of magic tricks to gain followership, then somehow only appeared to his “followers” after he cheated death? your logic astounds me as does your choice of “research,” but I digress. Actually, you help readers see the true heart of Mormonism when you remove the veneer and speak frankly. Thanks for that. I do value honesty, even if your perspective is misguided and aimed at maligning the beliefs natural to Christianity and antithetical to Mormonism.
“If the present God and Father of this planet is worshipped and prayed to by His spirit children, and if Mormon males hope to become gods in the same way, their spirit children would likewise pray to and worship them!” -Who says you can’t teach an old dog new tricks!? Logic dictates that, yes, when we become exalted (after this life) and take our place as joint heirs with Christ (Romans 8:16-17... but then again what would Paul know) we will take our place in the eternities and the cycle will continue. I must again thank you for being more honest than all the previous Mormonism apologists I’ve run across at FR. Of course you realize Christians do not believe you or they will ever progress to godhood, but you appear to be affirming this heresy.
“At this point it is worth bearing in mind that the Bible says nothing about an infinite number of god’s past and god’s to come. On the contrary, Isaiah 43:10 is very clear when God states: “Before me no God was formed and neither will there be one after me.” There was no god before God and there will certainly be no gods after Him. He is “the God of gods” (Deut. 10:17; Ps. 136:2; Dan. 2:4, 11:36). That is to say, although there are certainly so called “gods” in existence (1 Cor. 8:5), they are not true God by nature (Gal. 4:8). There is only one true God (John 17:3). ]” -This is a perfect time to interject (again) the need for a Latter-Day Prophet and a Restoration of The Gospel. Genesis 3:22 (... Man has become as one of us...) Mormons also take Jesus at his word in John 10:34 (Jesus answered them , is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?) So how do you explain the obvious discord created by The Bible? There are more than these two verses that cover our divinity as children of God. All this demonstrates is the need for Latter-day Prophets. There is only a discord in your perspective because you do not accept that this passage which refers back to OT passage regarding judges and magistrates called small case “G” ‘gods’.
If you will read and try to comprehend what I offered [The One God evidences Himself in the work He is doing ] on the nature of God from a Biblical perspective, I won’t have to explain all this yet again.
Suffice it to say that Jesus taught His followers that as He had/has the Holy Spirit of God in Him, so those who place their trust in Him will also receive the same Spirit by which we may say ‘Abba, Father.’ In John chapter 14, Jesus tried explaining this relationship to Philip, too. And of course it didn’t become clear to Philip until after the resurrection, when Jesus revealed His eternal nature to Philip.
I think of that passage as Philip‘s Physics lesson, where Jesus tells His disciple that all Philip can see of the Father God is what he sees in Jesus, for the Father is in Him and He is in the Father. If you cannot receive the teaching of how God‘s Spirit indwelt Jesus while He walked the earth and left Him at the moment of dying on the cross, I cannot expect you to understand how Jesus was in the Father, as He told Philip.
If you cannot create confusion and then exploit it to offer Mormonism heretical teaching of Joseph Smith and Brigham Young, you have nothing upon which to hook the unsuspecting. You yourself have been so hook and reeled in. And look at yourself, trying to denigrate the Bible on the one hand then trying to use out of context passages to prove Mormonism peculiar doctrines fed to you by those perpetuating the false doctrines, otherwise known as heresies.
“—Bill McKeever of Mormonism Researched Ministry makes an interesting observation about eternal families. He asks how it can be that a Mormon family can stay together forever in eternity if, for example, the children of that family go on to become gods themselves and rule their own planets? Those family members could not be together if they are each ruling their own planets.” Bill McKeever doesn’t understand the scriptures or basic logic. I dare say you are correct that McKeever doesn’t fully understand mormon ‘scriptures’; even smart Mormon apologists have trouble aligning the contradictory offerings (like polygamy abhorrent to God in the BofM, but Joe Smith instituted it as a command from God to allay the troubles Smith's sexual predation was causing, then a later leader commnaded it be discontinued yet your own D&C 132 has it still a commandment, expecting polygamy in Momron heaven).
Furtherore, in John 17:3, Jesus gives us the meaning of life “And this is life eternal, to know the only True God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent.” Jesus makes a clear distinction between Himself and The Father and clarifies that as being the thesis of eternal life, to know God. You perhaps read that as affirming your Mormon doctrine of two separate bodies, The Father and The Son. I assure you that is not what Jesus was conveying, but you will have to do a bit of studying to comprehend the reasons why Jesus was not affirming polytheism.
Please, killer, read the little essay I linked above on the nature of God. I’ll be more than happy to discuss and defend for you anything in that essay and any questions you might have. I want you to meet the True God, to awaken to the false nature of Mormonism doctrines, and that’s a promise, Friend. One must first know God is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him. This god of Mormon eternal progression doctrine is not the One True God, just like allah of Islam is not the One True God. Once you awaken to that reality, God is waiting to bring you along in His family using any number of His other children to help you.
Pax vobiscum
Educational as usual...
Thank you, MHG
Tell me about it!
I thought it was on MY end!
ok now that MHG wants to turn this into an official Anti-Mormon Thread... game on.
“Didn’t you read in the New Testament that among the body of believers, God’s Spirit gives gifts to do these very tasks, teaching, revealing, prophesy on rare occasions? Didn’t you read the instances of these traits/gifts of the Spirit illustrated in the New Testament? Jesus is our High Priest and our eternal Prophet, killer. Read the Acts of the Apostles and especially the conversion of Saul again.”
Since you obviously don’t want to include Scriptural reference and can only regurgitate nonsense that you have been told, we will start here. This cis answered by Paul in Ephesians 4:5;11-14. Are we at a unity of faith? Are Anti-Mormons still lying in wait to deceive? We’ll see how many of these questions an avid Anti-Mormon will answer honestly.
“You depart from logic with an opinion not substantiated by anything in evidence, and in fact the Bible says God is Spirit and must be worshiped in spirit and truth. You’re not hitting very straight, killer”
Wow I don’t know what bible you read but in the KJV John 5:19 it is plain to see that Jesus Christ was following his Fathers example in ALL things. What is the Biblical reference that explains when Jesus Christ gives up His physical body? still waiting for any in the Anti-Crowd to cough this one up. Logic is logic and it is you who is hitting like a cross-eyed, club-footed golfer. MHG, try to be honest this time.
“Given the LDS stance against homosexual marriage, one would think a good Mormon would be good enough not to make such a nasty, bordering on blasphemy remark, but then we do have a history of your snarking at FR to refer to so we see you are staying within character. And it might occur to readers that you just affirmed your belief that God The Father Almighty had a wife or wives … again, not a Christian concept and antithetical to Judaeo-Chrsitian belief as taught in the Bible.”
Ohh poor baby, did I hit a nerve by making fun of your Anti-Mormon Essay? Seriously though, lighten up and take it easy. If Ephesians 4:13 is at all accurate by what we will need today, based on Paul, then a Latter-day Prophet will be receiving Latter-Day Revelation that restores those “plain and precious” truths. The key word there is RESTORES!
“You ask a question oblique to the passage you appear to disagree with. Try to stay on message if you think you’re refuting the facts offered in the essay. And again, by avoiding the actual issue in the essay, you give agreement to the premise it exposed, namely that Mormons believe God has wives and children and progressed to godhood from some lesser state of existence. Since the god of mormonism would have had a god while he was in mortal existence ‘progressing’ you’ve affirmed that Momronism is polytheistic since your MORMON DOCTRINE of eternal progression cannot happen without polytheism at its roots.”
Mormons worship God The Father. Mormons worship Jesus Christ, and that Godhead they comprise with the Holy Ghost. We do not worship any other gods that are in existence. YOu try to obfusicate the argument by claiming only one definition of polytheism in an attempt to discredit Mormon Doctrine in more than one god. Dictionary.com has it broken in two parts as “the worship of or belief in more than one god.” We believe in more than one God too. Jesus Christ is a God and God the Father is a God so, yes we are polytheistic... where inn the Bible does Jesus give up his body again? Still haven’t heard back MHG.
“Actually, you help readers see the true heart of Mormonism when you remove the veneer and speak frankly. Thanks for that. I do value honesty, even if your perspective is misguided and aimed at maligning the beliefs natural to Christianity and antithetical to Mormonism.”
I was giving an example but since you obviously need help in understanding the example let me type s l o w l y... or can we continue at regular pace? Speaking of snarky, this whole response wreaks of it. It was a valiant attempt at a spin as well. I assumed (won’t do that again) you would be learned enough to see an example especially when I post e.g. (example given) before it.... but then again anti’s are slow on the upswing, and will twist and spin anything to try to gain advantage. I will type s l o w e r i n t h e f u t u r e.
“I must again thank you for being more honest than all the previous Mormonism apologists I’ve run across at FR. Of course you realize Christians do not believe you or they will ever progress to godhood, but you appear to be affirming this heresy.”
Your truly welcome MHG! I also realize that christians especially the Anti-Mormon types don’t even take Christ at his word... even when they are printed in RED. You can believe what you want to. Paul is the one who teaches it (but then again what would he know) and it is the Anti-Crowd that has yet to answer what a Joint-heir with Christ means. Mormons know what it means and we know exactly what Paul meant by it, MHG.
I won’t post your entire quote but I see you aren’t offering any original understanding you have but another essay by other Anti-Mormon “scholars. In that tirade you mention that gods is is referred to in a passage not given by you that judges/magistrates are called gods not Gods... so anytime gods is mentioned we can substitute magistrate/judges? And you blame me for obfusicating the argument. Anyway, I loved your attack as follows:
“if you cannot create confusion and then exploit it to offer Mormonism heretical teaching of Joseph Smith and Brigham Young, you have nothing upon which to hook the unsuspecting. You yourself have been so hook and reeled in. And look at yourself, trying to denigrate the Bible on the one hand then trying to use out of context passages to prove Mormonism peculiar doctrines fed to you by those perpetuating the false doctrines, otherwise known as heresies.” —— if anything Mormonism undoes the confusion created by “christians” through Latter-day prophets and Revelation that has been woven through centuries lovingly named The Dark Ages and the Protestant Reformation. I will not post my conversion as it would be against Jesus Christ’s teaching on pearls and swine. I denigrate only your interpretations of the Bible through the use of logic and reason which is more than I can say about your denigration of my beliefs using hatred and vitriol (whose example are you following?). If logic bothers you so much then why do you post at all?
” I dare say you are correct that McKeever doesn’t fully understand mormon ‘scriptures’; even smart Mormon apologists have trouble aligning the contradictory offerings (like polygamy abhorrent to God in the BofM, but Joe Smith instituted it as a command from God to allay the troubles Smith’s sexual predation was causing, then a later leader commnaded it be discontinued yet your own D&C 132 has it still a commandment, expecting polygamy in Momron heaven).”
Nice straw man cloaked attack filled with vitriol and hatred, but I guess it is only a hatred of Mormonism so it is ok, right? After all that is what Jesus taught, right? I am not near as smart or as inspired of God (as in Elohim, God The Father) as was The Prophet Joseph Smith and I understand that there is only a contradiction in your personal interpretation of the Bible,MHG, and your ability to accept logic as this entire thread has been evidence of such a deficit.
I will finish keeping the faith with this finality. Many have tried (and failed) to expose the “true nature” of Mormonism or the teachings of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. How many Institutes, web pages, and resources are there all with the same claim about “the pitfalls” of Mormonism? These are all rhetorical questions of course and the answer is obvious. Mormons know we are Christians (we don’t need your stamp of approval as we already have His) because we believe in Jesus Christ who was born of the Virgin Mary, Who suffered in Gethsemane, Who was crucified for the sins of the world, who will allow all who believe on his name enter through the gates of Heaven. I am positive this is the same Jesus you believe in. The fact that Mormons make up a small percentage of Christendom only exemplifies what Jesus Christ said in Matthew 7:13-14. It’s His Gospel and His example that Mormons follow.
-Peace be unto you, too!