Posted on 10/04/2010 12:57:36 PM PDT by Amerisrael
Art Vanick, co-author of The Spalding Enigma, Who Really Wrote The Book of Mormon, makes an appearance on Out of Mormonism to address the Glenn Beck Restoring Honor Rally.
Andy, Art, and Roger discuss the ramifications of the rally from a biblical Christian perspective.
Do Christians understand that Mormonism is different than biblical Christianity?
[ These are two separate "Out of Mormonism" radio podcasts from Mesa, Arizona. Very interesting.]
While Mormonism may not pose the violent / stealth and political threat that Islam does, from a spiritual standpoint, it is just as dangerous.
(Excerpt) Read more at outofmormonism.libsyn.com ...
Folks, this eternal progression (or should we better characterize it as eternal regression since the implications are that retrograde godhood preceeded the current god and who knows what it will be in the future gods of mormonism 'exaltation?) is not Christianity.
The poster affrims his belief in this polytheistic system of gods, BUT, the poster then turns and tries to obfuscate what he has just affirmed he believes on the nature of God (or should that be 'god'?). This ability to hold two opposite beliefs is not unusual in a mormonism apologist, but it is revealing when exposed.
I will address directly, point by twisted point, if killer wants me to, or if readers would like the exercise in detail. But reading the response, one gets the feeling that several apologists collaborate to offer this response, due to the disjunct nature of the points misaligned.
My Mormon mind? alrighty then.....
Mormons aren’t human eh? I’ll try not to take this as another personal attack /eyeroll
And our RESEARCH has proven that MORMONism is a heresy.
False as usual.
Could you please ramp it up a little? I think you could be just a teency bit more obnoxious. I could be wrong though.
This one stuck out like a sore thumb. A complete misinterpretation of the scripture.
The use of the word gods (lower case "g" is notable here), does not equate to equivalency/equality.
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Ye are gods - This was said of magistrates on account of the dignity and honor of their office, and it shows that the Hebrew word translated "god," אלהים ̀elohiym, in that place might be applied to man. Such a use of the word is, however, rare. See instances in Exodus 7:1; Exodus 4:16.
http://bible.cc/john/10-34.htm
Well, with the above statement, this "mormon woman" has put on a sickening, disgusting display of ill will towards one of the kindest, gentlest, most honorable and charitable people I know. Not to mention selfless: She does not live for herself, but as the servant of the God she knows.
American Baptists and the Church of LDS evidently do not envision the Holy Trinity in the same way. But if LDS claims to be Christian, then it seems to me the first thing it needs to do is to uphold and model in one's personal life the example and teachings of Christ.
What "a morman woman" had to say had nothing to do with Christ, and evidently everything to do with her own personal proclivities in lieu of Christ's universal message.
In this regard, "a morman woman" has fallen far short of the Christian goal, as evidenced by such a nasty, ad hominum attack against a fellow Christian believer.
Don't forget: "Blessed are the peacemakers...."
Alamo-Girl is my dearest sister in Christ. If you have a problem with her, you have a problem with me.
All heat, no light here, greyfoxx39. Just plenty of "attitude." JMHO FWIW.
“I have the proof I need; the testimony of the Holy Ghost.”
I doubt it. Prove it’s the Holy Ghost, Normandy.
Other than your feelings, what proof do you have
that your feelings come from the Holy Ghost and
not a demon (most likely source)?
How do you KNOW? Or do you only have your feelings
to back up your feelings?
best
ampu
Joseph Smith claims that after he translated the plates, he returned them to the angel Moroni. Therefore, there is no way to verify the veracity of the plates or Smith's translation. Smith's only defense of his account is the eleven men who signed statements claiming to have seen the golden plates. Therefore, the credibility of Smith's account rests on the testimony of these eleven witnesses. There are three key witnesses who claim to have seen the angel show the golden plates to them. The remaining eight allege to have seen the plates but not the angel. The LDS church asserts these men never denied their testimony. However, when we examine the lives of the witnesses, we find they were untrustworthy, wavering, and gullible witnesses.
Six of the eleven witnesses, including the three key witnesses were eventually excommunicated from the church. Former Mormon President Ezra Taft Benson summed up the legacy of the eleven witnesses this way. "Six of the original Twelve Apostles selected by Joseph Smith were excommunicated. The three Witnesses to the Book of Mormon left the church. Three of Joseph Smith's counselors fell--one even helped plot his death. . . . The wolves among our flock are more numerous and devious today than when President Clark made a similar statement [in 1949]."{6}
Let us first examine the character of the three key witnesses since their testimony is the most important. In a letter dated December 16, 1838, Joseph Smith stated this about the three key witnesses and John Whitmer, one of the eight. "John Whitmer, David Whitmer, Oliver Cowdery, and Martin Harris are too mean to mention."{7}
Martin Harris' testimony shows him to be a gullible and unstable man. He changed his religious conviction approximately thirteen times. He had joined several Christian denominations and other cult groups that include the Universalists, Strangites, and the Shakers. {8}(Ankerberg, 196) In Doctrine and Covenants, Joseph Smith gave revelations in which he denounces Martin Harris and calls him a "wicked man."{9} The Mormon leaders published an article in the Elder's Journal, a Mormon publication edited by Joseph Smith, in which they accused Harris guilty of "swearing, lying, cheating, swindling, drinking, with every species of debauchery. . ." (Elders Journal, August, 1838, 59).{10} Here the leaders of the Mormon Church strongly criticize the character of Harris.
Oliver Cowdery was also shown to be a very gullible man. He was led astray by Hiram Page, one of the eight witnesses who himself claimed to have divine revelations from his own seer stone. Although Joseph Smith denounced Hiram as a false teacher, Smith stated "to our grief, however, we soon found that Satan had been lying in wait to deceive. . . . Brother Hiram Page had in his possession a certain stone, by which he obtained certain 'revelations' . . . all of which were entirely at variance with the order of God's House, . . ."{11} Despite Smith's condemnation, Oliver Cowdery joined Page's movement. Not only was he a gullible man, he was also indicted on several accounts of fraudulent business practices. The Mormon Church in a letter wrote, "During the career of Oliver Cowdery and David Whitmer's bogus money business, it got abroad into the world that they were engaged in it. . . . We have evidence of a very strong character that you are at this very time engaged with a gang of counterfeiters, coiners, and blacklegs . . ."{12} Cowdery was eventually excommunicated and he later joined the Methodist Church.
David Whitmer wrote, "God spake to me again by his own voice from the heavens, and told me to 'separate myself from among the Latter- day Saints, for as they sought to do unto me, so should it be done unto them." In the spring of 1838, the heads of the church and many of the members had gone deep into error and blindness. . . . About the same time that I came out, the Spirit of God moved upon quite a number of the brethren who came out, with their families, all of the eight witnesses who were then living (except the three Smiths) came out; . . ."{13} Here David Whitmer denounced the Mormon Church and encouraged people to follow his example and the example of the other witnesses and leave the church.
Joseph Smith in response attacked the character of David Whitmer. Smith stated, "God suffered such kind of beings to afflict Job . . . this poor man who professes to be much of a prophet, has no other dumb ass to ride but David Whitmer, to forbid his madness when he goes up to curse Israel: and this ass not being of the same kind as Balaam's . . . he brays out cursing instead of blessings. Poor ass!"{14}
The character and life of the eleven witnesses to the Book of Mormon are very different from the Apostles of Christ. None of the Apostles wavered in their defense of Christ, even though all suffered and most died for their faith. The Apostles remained consistent in their teaching and never fell into any type of apostasy. Their lives were marked by honesty and integrity. They were never indicted for any criminal activity except for preaching Christ. The character of the Book of Mormon's eleven witnesses does not strengthen Smith's defense but cast further doubt on its authenticity.
Probe Ministry website quote
betty -
you have to remember (though it doesn’t excuse her) that her entire salvation is wrapped up in the requirement for her to be perfectly sinless at all times, meet all the obligations incurred through ordinances, laws, tithing, callings, etc necessary to continue to prove her ‘worthiness’ before her husband, bishop and her ‘god’. When they see the truth that this will never gain them the salvation that they’ve vested so much time and effort in, the reaction is not unexpected.
SD, how goes your efforts to earn your salvation today?
For some reason your post makes my spirit weep. I know that I am washed by the Blood, I know I can never be good enough to earn my way to Salvation. It must be a horrible life to always be in fear that maybe today “I wasn’t good enough”. Blessed assurance Jesus is mine!
I’ll put my comments in italics, to try and reduce confusion.
“The logical implications of this are as follows:” -If we are going to use logic then game on... all logic is going to prove is the need for Latter-day Prophets and Revelation. Didn’t you read in the New Testament that among the body of believers, God’s Spirit gives gifts to do these very tasks, teaching, revealing, prophesy on rare occasions? Didn’t you read the instances of these traits/gifts of the Spirit illustrated in the New Testament? Jesus is our High Priest and our eternal Prophet, killer. Read the Acts of the Apostles and especially the conversion of Saul again.
“The Mormon doctrine of eternal progression teaches that God the Father was once a man, (John 5:19 - Jesus didn’t do anything except what he saw The Father do, Jesus has a body meaning the Father also has a body. Jesus was born therefore His Father was born too.) You depart from logic with an opinion not substantiated by anything in evidence, and in fact the Bible says God is Spirit and must be worshiped in spirit and truth. You’re not hitting very straight, killer.
“...who progressed to Godhood through obedience to certain laws and ordinances.” (John 3:5, 7:17, 14:15 Part of this obedience involved getting married to a woman,(He certainly wasn’t to be married to a man) Given the LDS stance against homosexual marriage, one would think a good Mormon would be good enough not to make such a nasty, bordering on blasphemy remark, but then we do have a history of your snarking at FR to refer to so we see you are staying within character. And it might occur to readers that you just affirmed your belief that God The Father Almighty had a wife or wives … again, not a Christian concept and antithetical to Judaeo-Chrsitian belief as taught in the Bible.
“The Heavenly Mother”, who gives birth to God’s spirit children, who are sent to earth to inhabit bodies of flesh and bone. These spirit children, if they are Mormons, remain obedient to the laws of the Mormon Church(The True Church) (John 14:15), and are married in the Mormon temple, have the potential to become gods themselves. They will produce spirit children and rule their own planet. This process is then repeated.” -Are you or the author suggesting that we have everything that was uttered by Jesus Christ in the Bible and that there are or never were any other records of His Divine Ministry? I can’t wait to hear your explanation of that. You ask a question oblique to the passage you appear to disagree with. Try to stay on message if you think you’re refuting the facts offered in the essay. And again, by avoiding the actual issue in the essay, you give agreement to the premise it exposed, namely that Mormons believe God has wives and children and progressed to godhood from some lesser state of existence. Since the god of mormonism would have had a god while he was in mortal existence 'progressing' you've affirmed that Momronism is polytheistic since your MORMON DOCTRINE of eternal progression cannot happen without polytheism at its roots.
This type of “informed work” can be demonstrated against Christianity from an other than Christian perspective too. e.g. you mean to tell me that a virgin gave birth to a baby who then performed all kinds of magic tricks to gain followership, then somehow only appeared to his “followers” after he cheated death? your logic astounds me as does your choice of “research,” but I digress. Actually, you help readers see the true heart of Mormonism when you remove the veneer and speak frankly. Thanks for that. I do value honesty, even if your perspective is misguided and aimed at maligning the beliefs natural to Christianity and antithetical to Mormonism.
“If the present God and Father of this planet is worshipped and prayed to by His spirit children, and if Mormon males hope to become gods in the same way, their spirit children would likewise pray to and worship them!” -Who says you can’t teach an old dog new tricks!? Logic dictates that, yes, when we become exalted (after this life) and take our place as joint heirs with Christ (Romans 8:16-17... but then again what would Paul know) we will take our place in the eternities and the cycle will continue. I must again thank you for being more honest than all the previous Mormonism apologists I’ve run across at FR. Of course you realize Christians do not believe you or they will ever progress to godhood, but you appear to be affirming this heresy.
“At this point it is worth bearing in mind that the Bible says nothing about an infinite number of god’s past and god’s to come. On the contrary, Isaiah 43:10 is very clear when God states: “Before me no God was formed and neither will there be one after me.” There was no god before God and there will certainly be no gods after Him. He is “the God of gods” (Deut. 10:17; Ps. 136:2; Dan. 2:4, 11:36). That is to say, although there are certainly so called “gods” in existence (1 Cor. 8:5), they are not true God by nature (Gal. 4:8). There is only one true God (John 17:3). ]” -This is a perfect time to interject (again) the need for a Latter-Day Prophet and a Restoration of The Gospel. Genesis 3:22 (... Man has become as one of us...) Mormons also take Jesus at his word in John 10:34 (Jesus answered them , is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?) So how do you explain the obvious discord created by The Bible? There are more than these two verses that cover our divinity as children of God. All this demonstrates is the need for Latter-day Prophets. There is only a discord in your perspective because you do not accept that this passage which refers back to OT passage regarding judges and magistrates called small case “G” ‘gods’.
If you will read and try to comprehend what I offered [The One God evidences Himself in the work He is doing ] on the nature of God from a Biblical perspective, I won’t have to explain all this yet again.
Suffice it to say that Jesus taught His followers that as He had/has the Holy Spirit of God in Him, so those who place their trust in Him will also receive the same Spirit by which we may say ‘Abba, Father.’ In John chapter 14, Jesus tried explaining this relationship to Philip, too. And of course it didn’t become clear to Philip until after the resurrection, when Jesus revealed His eternal nature to Philip.
I think of that passage as Philip‘s Physics lesson, where Jesus tells His disciple that all Philip can see of the Father God is what he sees in Jesus, for the Father is in Him and He is in the Father. If you cannot receive the teaching of how God‘s Spirit indwelt Jesus while He walked the earth and left Him at the moment of dying on the cross, I cannot expect you to understand how Jesus was in the Father, as He told Philip.
If you cannot create confusion and then exploit it to offer Mormonism heretical teaching of Joseph Smith and Brigham Young, you have nothing upon which to hook the unsuspecting. You yourself have been so hook and reeled in. And look at yourself, trying to denigrate the Bible on the one hand then trying to use out of context passages to prove Mormonism peculiar doctrines fed to you by those perpetuating the false doctrines, otherwise known as heresies.
“—Bill McKeever of Mormonism Researched Ministry makes an interesting observation about eternal families. He asks how it can be that a Mormon family can stay together forever in eternity if, for example, the children of that family go on to become gods themselves and rule their own planets? Those family members could not be together if they are each ruling their own planets.” Bill McKeever doesn’t understand the scriptures or basic logic. I dare say you are correct that McKeever doesn’t fully understand mormon ‘scriptures’; even smart Mormon apologists have trouble aligning the contradictory offerings (like polygamy abhorrent to God in the BofM, but Joe Smith instituted it as a command from God to allay the troubles Smith's sexual predation was causing, then a later leader commnaded it be discontinued yet your own D&C 132 has it still a commandment, expecting polygamy in Momron heaven).
Furtherore, in John 17:3, Jesus gives us the meaning of life “And this is life eternal, to know the only True God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent.” Jesus makes a clear distinction between Himself and The Father and clarifies that as being the thesis of eternal life, to know God. You perhaps read that as affirming your Mormon doctrine of two separate bodies, The Father and The Son. I assure you that is not what Jesus was conveying, but you will have to do a bit of studying to comprehend the reasons why Jesus was not affirming polytheism.
Please, killer, read the little essay I linked above on the nature of God. I’ll be more than happy to discuss and defend for you anything in that essay and any questions you might have. I want you to meet the True God, to awaken to the false nature of Mormonism doctrines, and that’s a promise, Friend. One must first know God is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him. This god of Mormon eternal progression doctrine is not the One True God, just like allah of Islam is not the One True God. Once you awaken to that reality, God is waiting to bring you along in His family using any number of His other children to help you.
Pax vobiscum
Some mislead FReepers are so single-minded that they have no idea what wonderful people we have, like Alamo Girl. By the same token, I very much doubt the veracity of the poster having "read back through some of your".....if she had, she would never have made the ignorant remark that she did.
I joing you in saying, "if you have a problem with AG, you have one with me".
“I joing you in saying, “if you have a problem with AG, you have one with me”.
What she said. That goes for every Christian brother or sister here.
best,
ampu
There are great dangers in the Mormon doctrines and belief system...many which have been time and again repeated and debated on these threads...and in every case across the board Mormons are unable to defend the falsehoods they present when they are tested by the Scriptures...which are the ultimate authority as all Christians recognize....but Mormons do not believe the Scriptures are the ultimate authority....they stand on the writings of a false and counterfeit and occultic man whose claims have for years been debunked and proven to oppose Christianity...this too time and again.
Mormonism is twisted to the umpth degree...it can never be considered Christian...especially just by proclaiming that they are...their teachings defy the Living God in every way when they bring in the none-sense of becoming Gods and the rest of the blasphemous teachings of Joseph Smith..who was a vile and despicable man....historical facts have and will always prove this to be so. Saying mormons are Christian is like Obama claiming he's Christian....He could not believe what he does and be a Christian...only the father of lies perpetuates his stands..as does much in the Moraman teachings.
I joig you in saying, “if you have a problem with AG, you have one with me”.
_______________________________________
Same goes for me...
Alamo Girl is ome of the dearest FReepers amongst us...
:)
Educational as usual...
Thank you, MHG
Does come up to the standard you set with your explanations, but thank you, m’Lady.
DOESN’T come up to the standard you set ... must be bedtime for these old fingers.
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