Intended Catholic Dictatorship

Independent Individualist ^ | 8/27/10 | Reginald Firehammer

[Natural Law]

"154. Q. Is Baptism necessary to salvation?"

The Question is from the Baltimore Catechism which was developed to teach elementary level Catechism to school children and marginally literate adults. Its answers are very simplistic and incomplete. It was developed in 1885 and was last updated in 1933. It was "retired" in the 1960s following Vatican II.

It is assumed that adults interested in learning the whole and complete Catechism will seek out other, more complete sources including the whole and complete Catechism of the Catholic Church.

[Natural Law]

"There are far more differences between the beliefs of the Catholics that sit in a pew on Sunday than between Evangelical Protestants.."

...in 33,000 different denominations.....Now that's funny.

[Natural Law]

"Point is that it was taught to us AS IF IT WERE DOCTRINE.."

Then you acknowledge that you were poorly Catechized?

[Legatus]

In my experience anyway, Catholics who "don't believe" what the Church teaches frequently (not always, sadly) don't actually know or understand a particular teaching but are quite amenable to accepting it when it's explained.

True, a lot of people who "dissent" from Church teaching aren't actively dissenting. I'm not sure how much good that does them though.

[RnMomof7]

Last time I checked, the "New" Testament was also revealed to the Jews unless you know of any non-Jewish Apostles in Jesus' party.

Look again..the NT, beginning in Acts was reveled to the church

The Gospels are actually OT scripture because the New covenant did not begin until Christ died, rose and ascended into heaven and the Holy Spirit came to form the church

The NT is revelation to the church..Christ NEVER gave authority over the OT to the church

[RnMomof7]

Where do they go then? They can not go yo heaven ..do we have a 3rd choice?

[Mr Rogers]

“Faith is a gift of God and not from yourselves. How much clearer does it get”

Well, it doesn’t say that ANYWHERE in scripture - so how much clearer can it be that this is NOT a revelation of God, but a man-made teaching?

[RnMomof7]

Do any of the scriptures you posted tell us where the faith came from?

[Cronos]

It is an express Biblical teaching that God hates certain people:

God Hates iniquitous men, bloody and deceitful men,wicked and violent men,perverse men, proud men

And yet that is not the point -- the point is that in a Calvinist viewpoint, God created people to be iniquitous men, bloody and deceitful men,wicked and violent men,perverse men, proud men--> determined from before time that that is what they would be (since they have no free will to do anything else). The actions which you state are what men do of their own free will: to be deceitful or violent or perverse etc., those are not the actions of puppets.

I do understand from your posts that you are not of the "hyper-Calvinist viewpoint", which believes in double predestination -- i.e. that God decided that some would go to hell from before they born and others to heaven, with them having no will to chose or not to choose.

The debate here was against the "hyper-Calvinist" viewpoint.

[Cronos]

But God did NOT pick a list of names to hate from before the beginning of the world and compel them to sin so he could judge them for doing what they could not help doing.

CC --> that is the so-called "hyper-Calvinist" viewpoint. We assume from Dr. E's posts (with whom this debate originated) that those are her viewpoints (please correct us if we are wrong, Dr. E) --> you may not share these, but they are a hyper-version of the Calvinist viewpoint.

No one is bearing false witness -- this is what the previous posts led us to believe was the debating point -- it is not about what you individually believe.

[Legatus]

It was "retired" in the 1960s following Vatican II.

heh... I use it for my 5th, 3rd and 1st grade children. I make them memorize the questions and answers too. Just like I make them memorize multiplication tables, the periodic table of elements, parts of speech, presidents of the US (monarchs of England, emperors of Rome... lol), etc. Lists, lists, lists!

The Baltimore Catechism is a great foundational springboard and I haven't found anything better for the instruction of children, even/especially the new CCC. But yes, if my kids are still dependent on the formulas of the catechism they learned as children when they're adults there's gonna be a problem.

[1000 silverlings]

you appear to have a faith based on works, and not on the work of Christ. If that is the case and you believe that it is up to you and other men to save yourselves, then you are living under the Law. Perhaps you are more comfortable with the theology of the Catholic church and its emphasis on works to help save them and the insecurity that this brings, and that explains your affinity with them. Is Peter the "rock"?

Or is the supernatural belief in Christ given to you by God Himself the rock upon which the Church is built? A man cannot serve two masters, pick one, Christ or Rome

[maryz]

As the Catechism says, we entrust them to a loving and just God. We have never believed they go to hell; the only question is how they can gain heaven. I believe there are several hypotheses proposed, but I'm not conversant with them in detail so I won't comment further.

[maryz]

But yes, if my kids are still dependent on the formulas of the catechism they learned as children when they're adults there's gonna be a problem.

OK, but as I recall the Baltimore Catechism, at least they'll have the vocabulary to progress! Hard words? Tough -- here's the glossary in every chapter! ;-)

[Natural Law]

"I use it for my 5th, 3rd and 1st grade children."

I first learned form it too. My point was that it is a primer, not an authoritative source. Its purpose was to get Catholics to the point of intelligently asking "Why?" in the context of Catholic dogma. Those who complete their knowledge of the Catholic dogma with a cursory knowledge of the Baltimore Catechism are poorly Catechized. Those who cite it as authoritative simply look foolish.

[OLD REGGIE]

The Alexandrian Jews did. That's where the Septuagint came from and was used by them canon. Obviously, the Apostles thought they books were canon because none objected to those books being there, just as no one objected to quoting from the Book of Enoch.

Balderdash. Are you now claiming the Apostles considered the Book of Enoch or the "Apocrypha" ss Scripture?

You speak as if there was one Septuagint. Though some Hellenized Jews may have read one or more versions of the Septuagint they were hardly the "Jews".

"The Protestant canon follows the Pharisaical (rabbinic) canon, a sect unto itself that survived..."

Do I understand you to be claiming that the present day Jewish Canon (Torah) of the Orthodox and Reformed Jews is nothing but a surviving sect?

Romans 3:
[1] Then what advantage has the Jew? Or what is the value of circumcision?
[2] Much in every way. To begin with, the Jews are entrusted with the oracles of God.

[D-fendr]

If Jews have authority over the OT, do they therefore have authority over what it means and how it is interpreted?

[RnMomof7]

And if faith was a gift given us by God so we would irresistibly believe, shouldn’t it be mentioned somewhere? At least once? The irresistible gift of faith?

Are some hearts too steely, too hardened for Gods grace to penetrate, that Christ can not enter at HIS will? Was not ALL power on heaven and earth given to Christ?To deny Him this ability then denies Him ALL power on heaven and earth.To say the lost will not allow Him in is to deny His sufficiency.It is a question of His will ..

If The Lord Jesus decreed that He desires all men to be saved, then He must lack the power to His will..

As others have noted the issue at hand is the deity of Christ because a defeated savior can not be God

Remember the words of Christ Jhn 17:9 "I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.

[Natural Law]

"A man cannot serve two masters, pick one, Christ or Rome."

Why would you say that to a Baptist?

[1000 silverlings]

with the oracles of God.

I did notice he mentioned the Torah but left out the Prophets