[CATHOLIC/ORTHODOX CAUCUS] Where was Mary assumed to?

The New Theological Movement ^ | 8/14/2010

[markomalley]

The Assumption is not a metaphor

We must be very clear on this point: The Assumption is not a metaphor. The Blessed Virgin Mary was really taken up, her physical body was transformed. Pope Pius XII in Munificentissimus Deus (1950) declared that Mary, “after the completion of her earthly life, was assumed body and soul into the glory of heaven.” Both BODY and SOUL! This means that her physical body was transformed and glorified (in a manner identical to Christ’s after his Resurrection), her soul was perfected with the Beatific Vision, and she was taken up.

Is heaven a place?

In the General Audience of 21 July 1999, Pope John Paul II stated that heaven “is neither an abstraction nor a physical place in the clouds, but a living, personal relationship with the Holy Trinity.” In this statement, as (almost) always, the great Holy Father was in perfect accord with St. Thomas Aquinas – “Incorporeal things are not in place after a manner known and familiar to us, in which way we say that bodies are properly in place; but they are in place after a manner befitting spiritual substances, a manner that cannot be fully manifest to us” (ST Supplement, q.69, a.1, ad 1).

What John Paul II wished to stress, and what is especially important to consider today, is that heaven is not to be understood in terrestrial terms. Heaven is primarily a state of being and is certainly not a ‘place’ in the worldly sense of the term.

Nevertheless, we come to a difficulty when we ask: Where did Mary’s (and Christ’s) body go? The simplest answer is: Heaven! But then we wonder: If heaven isn’t a place in the ordinary sense of the word, how could there be real human bodies present there?

The words of Reginald Garrigou-Lagrange (who taught John Paul II and oversaw his doctoral work) are most helpful: “Heaven means this place, and especially this condition, of supreme beatitude. Had God created no bodies, but only pure spirits, heaven would not need to be a place; it would signify merely the state of the angels who rejoice in the possession of God. But in fact heaven is also a place. There we find the humanity of Jesus, the Blessed Virgin Mary, the angels, and the souls of the saints. Though we cannot say with certitude where this place is to be found, or what its relation is to the whole universe, revelation does not allow us to doubt of its existence.” (From Life Everlasting)

Now do not think that John Paul II had contradicted his teacher when he said that heaven is not a physical place in the clouds! Garrigou-Lagrange and the great Pontiff are both getting at the same point: Heaven is first and foremost union with God; secondarily, heaven is the place where the bodies of Jesus and Mary abide, but this ‘place’ is not like every other place we think of – its relation to our universe is not clear. Glorified bodies are very different than non-glorified bodies (though they are essentially the same). A glorified body does not move and take up space in exactly the same way as a non-glorified body does. Still, the glorified bodies of Jesus and Mary are somewhere, but this ‘somewhere’ will necessarily be a ‘place’ which is ‘glorified’ – just as the glorified body is different from non-glorified body, it resides in a ‘glorified place’ which is different from a non-glorified physical place. [This is my own reasoning and not an official Church teaching.]

Where is heaven?

The simple answer is: This has not yet been revealed to us. However, we can say that it is certainly not on earth. Neither is it within the earth. It is not in clouds either. Heaven may be somewhere in our universe, far off – though we must be careful not to fall back into our terrestrial categories of space, distance, and location.

Perhaps it is most likely that heaven is outside the universe in what some Thomists have called “uncontained place”. In ST III, q.57, a.4, ad 2 (which is not in the oldest and best manuscripts) we read: “A place implies the notion of containing; hence the first container has the formality of first place, and such is the first heaven. Therefore, bodies need themselves to be in a place, insofar as they are contained by a heavenly body. But glorified bodies, Christ’s especially, do not stand in need of being so contained, because they draw nothing from the heavenly bodies, but from God through the soul. So there is nothing to prevent Christ’s body from being beyond the containing radius of the heavenly bodies, and not in a containing place. Nor is there need for a vacuum to exist outside heaven, since there is no place there, nor is there any potentiality susceptive of a body, but the potentiality of reaching thither lies in Christ.”

This argument from the Summa claims that, because the glorified body in no way relies upon the non-glorified world, neither does it need to be contained in the universe. Thus, the bodies of Jesus and Mary may in fact be outside of the universe, outside of space and time, no longer contained by place. There is no space or place outside of the universe, but this is where the bodies of Christ and Mary are; since they need not be contained by physical place.

Therefore, it seems most likely that heaven is outside of our universe. It is not a ‘place’ as we usually think of ‘place’, but is a ‘non-containing place’, a ‘glorified place’. The glorified physical bodies of Jesus and Mary reside there. 

[Salvation]

Read Genesis — Enoch walked with God and was not seen again.

Read 2nd Kings” or is it first Kings and Elisha see Elijah go up to heaven in a flaming chairot and horses and whirlwind.

Read Matthew — at the moment of Christ’s death, as the sanctuary veil was torn in half — bodies emerged from their graves and roamed through Jerusalem, visible to many. They certainly did not go back into the graves — didn’t they follow Christ into heaven?

So we have three accounts of bodily assumption into heaven. So why should we NOT believe that Mary, without sin, also was assumed into heaven.

Early Church Fathers relate stories from the apostles how they were all transported to the bedside of Mary as she died from all corners of the earth. Did they also see her assumed into heaven?

Another thing....there have been churches of the Assumption of Mary since the fourth century, even though this is a fairly recent dogma.

My belief — yes, Mary was assumed into heaven. And yes, she sits at the right hand of her Son, Jesus Christ.

[Salvation]

[CATHOLIC/ORTHODOX CAUCUS] Where was Mary assumed to?

[CATHOLIC/ORTHODOX CAUCUS] Assumpta est Maria in cælum!
Why do we believe in the Assumption? (Catholic Caucus)
[CATHOLIC/ORTHODOX CAUCUS] Understanding The Assumption of Mary Into Heaven
Don't Assume the Assumption (Catholic Caucus :-)
Catholic Biblical Apologetics: The Assumption of Mary
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On Mary, Mother of Priests (Assumption)
The Assumption/Dormition: Mystery of Mary, Meaning of Life
From Eden to Eternity: A Homily on the Solemnity of the Assumption of the Blessed Virgin Mary
The Dormition of our Most Holy Lady the Theotokos and Ever Virgin Mary

Solemnity of the Assumption of the Blessed Virgin Mary: 15 August [Catholic/Orthodox Caucus]
The Assumption and the World by Bishop Fulton J. Sheen
The Early Church Fathers on the Assumption [Catholic/Orthodox Caucus]
THE ASSUMPTION OF MARY: A BELIEF SINCE APOSTOLIC TIMES [Ecumenical]
August 15, Feast of the Assumption - Did Mary's Assumption Really Occur? [Ecumenical]
Assumption Sermon of Rev James Bartoloma 8/16/07 (on Summorum Pontificum)
Angelus - Feast of the Assumption of the Blessed Virgin Mary (2007)
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Solemnity of the Assumption

Solemnity of the Assumption
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Meditations for this Feast Day of the Assumption of the Blessed Virgin Mary
HOMILIES PREACHED BY FATHER ALTIER ON THE FEAST OF THE ASSUMPTION
Why Catholics Believe in the Assumption of Mary
St. John Damascene: Homily 3 on the Assumption/Dormition
St. John Damascene: Homily II on the Assumption/Dormition
St. John Damascene: Homily I on the Assumption/Dormition
Catholic Caucus: The Assumption of Mary - Marcellino D'Ambrosio, PhD
Today's the Feast of the Assumption of Mary into Heaven

Feast of the Assumption of the Blessed Virgin Mary, August 15th.
Maronite Catholic: Qolo (Hymn) of the Assumption of the Blessed Virgin Mary
St. Gregory Palamas: On the Dormition of Our Supremely Pure Lady Theotokos and Ever-Virgin Mary
Maronite Catholic: Qolo (Hymn) of the Assumption of the Blessed Virgin Mary
Catholic Caucus: A NOVENA OF FASTING AND PRAYERS/ASSUMPTION/DORMITION
St. Gregory Palamas: On the Dormition of Our Supremely Pure Lady Theotokos and Ever-Virgin Mary
The Fourth Glorious Mystery
Archbishop Sheen Today! -- The glorious assumption
The Assumption Of The Blessed Virgin Mary Reflections For The Feast 2003
A Homily on the Dormition of Our Supremely Pure Lady Theotokos and Ever-Virgin Mary
The Assumption Of Mary

[Ransomed]

Great stuff!

Freegards, thanks for all the threads on FR

[Ransomed]

“She is dead and all those who died post crucifixion are sleeping, waiting for the final trump.”

So when you say the creed, do you leave the Communion of the Saints part out or what?

Freegards

[RobbyS]

Since we —in accordance with our physics—must think in terms of Time-space, and since we believe in the “kingdom of God,” and in the Resurrecetion of the Dead, heaven is that” place “ where Jesus “awaits” us as judge. and where our dead are with him as spirits and potentially/accualy as bodies as well. They are there beyond that event we call the Resurrection and are—in a way—”already” resurrected and joined again with their bodies.

[Ransomed]

“Since we —in accordance with our physics—must think in terms of Time-space...”

I bet a lot of the Saints had glimpses or more than glimpses beyond our reality by the Grace of the Holy Spirit, and that is why they seemed by many to be at times removed from the normal and every-day life of others.

Freegards

[RobbyS]

The reason that the Bible says nothing further about Mary is because the Church does not include in the canon writings that speak further of Mary. The “irrelevant” part is your opinion, and in Catholic terms what you say is heresy. From the time of Arius, even before, but most famously, from his time, because his heresy was the cause of the Nicene Creed, men who reduce Jesus to something less than that creed says he is have always spoken slightingly of Mary. Arius tried to make Jesus fit the categories of Greek Philosophy. But the Greeks could find no place for a statements like” Jesus is God. “ That was because Jesus was a man born of woman. Mary was thus just the mother of a man, and therefor of no account. But as John says. in the beginning the Word was made flesh, that exaults Mary. When he goes on to say that the Word was God, that makes her “theotokos.” The flesh he took over was hers, and somehow when men looked on his face, they were seeing God face to face, and that face resembled Mary’s. And because Mary was a Jew, it was a Jewish face, and Mary was Israel presenting the One God to all mankind. To say that Mary is “irrelevant” is to say that the body of Jesus was irrelevant once he died, and that the Resurrected Christ was essentially unrelated to the Jewish man Jesus.

[RobbyS]

It seems to have happened to St. Thomas. He had a glimpse that, as he said, made all his writings seem like straw.

[RobbyS]

And the same Church that “underwrites” the canon, says otherwise.

[Salvation]

So would you like to be on the Catholic ping list?

[RobbyS]

You would have no knowledge of the heavenly Father except for them.