Posted on 08/13/2010 2:53:38 PM PDT by Quix
We discuss the Roman Catholic notion of TRANSSUBSTANTIATION a fair amount hereon.
As I was driving across the beautiful, majestic Dineh Rez yesterday, I listened to most of more than 75 hymns and praise songs in a particular CD collection I had with me.
I was pondering that issue a fair amount—particularly the rather intense Roman Catholic obsession with it. I recalled how my noting that I could IMAGINE that, GOD in His Grace and Mercy COULD allow the verse about ACCORDING TO YOUR FAITH, SO BE IT UNTO YOU . . . to operate in some spiritually powerful sense for some RC’s in the act of partaking of The Lord’s Supper.
It was curious to me that my posting such assertions were never responded to very well, if at all, by more than one RC, if that many.
Then I began to prayerfully ponder what that ‘special’ application of “ACCORDING TO YOUR FAITH, SO BE IT UNTO YOU” might be like, operate like, look like.
ALL OF A SUDDEN,
It was as though a clear Voice in my spirit said something to the effect that: “IT HAS ALWAYS BEEN ABOUT FAITH. IT HAS NEVER BEEN ABOUT OBJECTS, NEVER.” My further sense was that GOD ALONE HAS ALWAYS BEEN THE ONLY “OBJECT” OF OUR AFFECTIONS THAT HE SUPPORTED.
Then some historic Scriptural examples came to mind. The forbidden fruit in The Garden was not about the fruit. It was about TRUSTING GOD—HAVING FAITH THAT GOD HAD ADAM AND EVE’S BEST INTERESTS AT HEART—THAT HE WOULD NOT WITHHOLD ANYTHING GOOD FROM THEM THAT WOULD BE TRULY GOOD FOR THEM. It was about TRUSTING GOD’S PROVISION AND CHARACTER ENOUGH to obey Him fully, in child-like faith and confidence in ABBA FATHER.
The altars of sacrifice that followed were not about the altars; nor even about the sacrifices. THEY WERE ABOUT TRUSTING GOD AND HIS INSTRUCTIONS ENOUGH TO BELIEVE THAT OBEDIENCE TO HIM WAS A SUPREMELY HIGH PRIORITY AND THAT GOD’S LOVE AND PROVISION WOULD SUFFICIENT—EVEN HIS PROVISION FOR SIN.
Noah’s Ark was not about the ark. It was about FAITH THAT GOD SPOKE TRUTH AND THAT GOD’S PROVISION WOULD BE SUFFICIENT. It was about FAITH IN GOD AND IN GOD’S WORD.
The blood on the doorposts in Egypt—as supremely vital and foreshadowing as that was . . . was not per se , about the blood. THAT TOO was about TRUSTING GOD AND TRUSTING GOD’S WORD AND THAT GOD’S PROVISION FOR SIN, FOR LIFE WOULD BE SUFFICIENT.
The brass serpent on the cross in the wilderness was not about serpents nor crosses. THAT TOO was about TRUSTING GOD AND TRUSTING GOD’S WORD that God’s provision FOR SIN AND FOR LIFE WOULD BE SUFFICIENT.
The Ark of The Covenant was NOT about a gold chest, angels & wings, golden hemorrhoids, Arron’s staff that budded nor the stone tablets of the Ten Commandments. It was about FAITH IN GOD, IN GOD’S LOVE AND IN GOD’S PROVISION.
Similarly, The Bread and The Wine are not about the Bread and The Wine—REGARDLESS OF WHETHER THEY TURN INTO SOMETHING MORE, OR NOT. They are about REMEMBERING GOD’S FAITHFULNESS AND PROVISION FOR SIN AND FOR ETERNAL LIFE—AND TO HAVE FAITH IN GOD’S ONGOING PROVISION FOR BOTH, DAY BY DAY.
I do NOT believe they turn into, what would by now, be massive tonnage of Christ’s body and blood. God has never had that kind of emphasis ON FLESH throughout Scripture. I don’t believe He suddenly shifted HIS EMPHASIS AND FOCUS in the middle of the stream.
Nevertheless, as a thought experiment, just pretend for a moment . . . that for some very strange and OUT OF BIBLICAL CHARACTER REASON, He did facilitate or allow that to happen.
EVEN THEN—WOULD THE BREAD AND THE WINE/LITERAL BODY AND BLOOD BE THE FOCUS?
NO WAY. GOD KNOWS US TOO WELL.
He knows we would quickly turn such elements and all the rituals around them into unmitigaged idolatrous nonsense AND REMOVE OUR FOCUS FROM THE (in Martin Buber’s terms) I-THOU RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN EACH INDIVIDUAL AND THE FATHER—WHICH WAS THE WHOLE POINT OF CHRIST’S SACRIFICE TO BEGIN WITH.
Oh, I can hear all the wails about how “knowing” (fantasizing) that “TRANSUBSTANTIATION” is “REAL” causes individuals to focus more intensely and directly on THE FATHER.
I can conceive of that to a degree for some relatively few individuals.
I don’t believe it for a flash for most of the loudest pontificators hereon.
THE ACT, THE RITUALS, THE SUBSTANCES, THE OBJECTS ARE FARRRRRRRR TOOOOO PRECIOUS AS OBJECTS AND SUBSTANCES TO THEM. That’s Idolatry.
I realize that’s likely to be tricky for some to wrap their rigid, willfully blind noggins around. Maybe even for some not so willfully blind.
Consider . . . if one is focusing on a wafer and swallow of wine . . . even if one is convinced and pretending or being utterly convinced that the wafer and wine are literally Christ’s flesh and blood . . . where is the focus?
At least LARGELY, the focus is ON THE “FLESH AND BLOOD.” The focus is on a “GLORIFIED” SOMETHING held in one’s hands or mouth.
If anything, that’s a FOCUS ON THE RESIDUE OF A CRUEL CRUCIFIXION.
YET, let’s pretend a bit more preposterously. Let’s assume that we are talking about the one in a million RC’s who MIGHT for flashingly brief moments spring-board from the cruel tangibles in their mouth or hands to THE RISEN LORD in their focus. What then is the import of literal flesh and blood in their mouth or hands that any Proddy misses out on by reaching the SAME QUALITY OF FOCUS with the elements merely as symbolic items of remembrance?
Christ implemented, as far as I can think or discern, the Lord’s Supper as a REMEMBRANCE much as the Ark of the Covenant was—saying—HEY—FOLKS—WHEN YOU SEE THE ARK, WHEN YOU THINK OF THE ARK—REMEMBER GOD’S FAITHFULNESS AND PROVISION THROUGH FROM EGYPT TO JERICO AND BEYOND. HAVE FAITH IN GOD! STRENGTHEN YOUR FAITH IN GOD!
Similarly, when we partake of the elements—FOCUS ON FAITH IN GOD—ON CHRIST’S PROVISION FOR SIN AND FOR ETERNAL LIFE—FOCUS IN ON HIM AND HIS VERY ONGOINGLY ACTIVE AND ETERNAL PROVISION.
The INGESTION of CHRIST IN US IS SPIRITUAL—TOTALLY SPIRITUAL—MUST BE TOTALLY SPIRITUAL FIRST AND FOREMOST. Yes, it influences our physical bodies as HE IS WHO HE IS IN US—THE RESURRECTED CHRIST.
The internally broken down elements are eliminated through normal bodily functions. NOT SO WITH THE RISEN CHRIST—HOLY SPIRIT WITHIN US. AS WE FOCUS MORE ON HIM—THE RISEN LORD, KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS—HE GROWS WITHIN US IN TERMS OF HIS INFLUENCE, HIS CONTROL, HIS SATURATION OF ALL OUR BEING WITH HIMSELF AND HIS PROVISION FOR US.
God’s focus NEVER HAS BEEN the flesh—not the objects of the flesh, nor the deeds of the flesh. The flesh is a vehicle for our training as sons of God—primarily as children of God—spirits enlivened with God.
YES, HE WILL REDEEM AND RESURRECT OUR BODIES. It’s not as though He trashes our bodies. However, HE CERTAINLY DOES NOT exalt the flesh in any sense. And there’s not a shred of Scripture to suggest that HE WANTS US TO EXALT EXAMPLES OF FLESH—OBJECTS OF FLESH—EVEN OSTENSIBLY AS CHRIST’S OWN BODY AND BLOOD.
It has NEVER been about the objects. It HAS ALWAYS BEEN ABOUT FAITH IN GOD AND IN HIS LOVE AND PROVISION—HIS PROVISION FOR SIN, HIS PROVISION FOR ETERNAL LIFE.
WE ARE HIS WORKMANSHIP—IN OUR HEARTS, MINDS, SPIRITS . . . He takes care of our bodies sufficiently to achieve the that task through our life process, trek, dance.
God even trashed the ritual with the most sacred object in the HOLY OF HOLIES when He rent the Temple Curtain. What greater declaration could He have made about His attitude toward a focus on objects and rituals?
With few exceptions (Chick, Christian Identity, anti-Semitism, Islamic Fundamentalism, etc.) I do not care what a poster believes, but the manner he expresses himself - whether it complies with the RF guidelines.
I DO appreciate that.
Very good advice.
Sometimes I have this image of sort of "ritual insult" as one might imagine samurai hurling at each other before they get down to the choppin'.
LOL!
But on these threads, I think whatever protestant denomination or catholics can be applied.
I think when we get to heaven we're all going to be amazed at who's there...and who isn't.
Here's the joke:
One day a man dies, who was a devout Christian. Saint Peter meets him at the Pearly Gates and begins to give him a tour of Heaven. As the tour goes on, Saint Paul points out all the different Christians. "There's the Catholics, there's the Lutherans, the Methodists, the Presbyterians", and so forth. As they come to this one group way off to themselves, Saint Paul motions for the man to come closer and whispers. "Now, for this next group, we need to be really quiet. They are the Baptists and they think they're the only ones in Heaven."
It IS interesting -- and a little distressing -- to find out how a part of me (hereinafter referred to as the 'old man') is almost more interested in who God is going to keep out than in whether he's going to let me in.
It's distressing to find out that there's this little self-sustaining hate reactor in me giving the lie to my persistent thought that 'deep down I'm not so bad.'
And that's why it's what I think of it as a "good" joke. It packs a sermon, a conviction of sin and an implicit proclamation of the God who, despite our provocation in the wilderness, finally lets us enter into His rest, entirely by his ever unexpected grace.
Amen brother (for my more charismatic friends)
@Gamecock should ask her. She’s always able and willing to respond.
-Theo
THOROUGHLY WRONG AGAIN, like all members of the cult formed by Sister Aimee McPherson (the twice divorced celebrity founder of the cult Foursquare)
You mean the Bigots of Sister Aimee McPherson, the Cult leader, right?
Christ delivers us to God blameless because we stand before His perfect judgment clothed in the righteousness of Christ, mercifully imputed to us.
But we still sin every day. It's the human condition. Those who have been regenerated by the free gift of the Holy Spirit will learn to hate their sins and thus they will sin less and less because they love God more than their sins.
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us." -- 1 John 1:8-10"If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
Was Paul lying?
According to "The History of All Religions Of The World." Welsh Baptist claim their churches were the result of Paul's ministry. When ministering in Rome, Claudia, a Welsh princess, was saved under Paul's ministry and returned to Wales carrying the truth. Her husband was named Pudens. 2 Timothy 4:21 -- Do thy diligence to come before winder, Eubulius greets thee, and Pudens, and Linus, and Claudia, and all the brethren.
These Welsh Baptist claim Paul journeyed to Wales and preached among them for two years, starting several churches Many of the Baptist churches started in America was by these Welsh Baptists. We trace our orign all the way back to John, Jesus, and Paul. We existed long before Constantine founded and declared Catholicism the state religion. Catholicism went on to severely persecute the Baptist and later ana-Baptist for their stand on the truth. Baptist are not protestants, we trace our origin back to the churches beginning.
No need to reply, I will follow the abmonition of Jesus on this thread from this point forward. “Do not cast your pearls before swine.”
I don’t belong to any religion. I belong to Christ!
Congratulations on devolving the references to include Rev. Ian Paisley. Never mind that the good Rev. Paisley gets it wrong, as he has from the beginning of his ministry, at least he is accurate as to his contempt for Trent; too bad that he does not continue that contempt back through to St. Ignatius; at least then he would be consistent.
I wonder as to the good Reverend’s opinion of the Athenasian Creed, as well as the first millennium’s Councils and resolutions. Where is his opinion of Nicea, for instance? Is he Trinitarian?
But not your actual lineage.
According to "The History of All Religions Of The World." Welsh Baptist claim their churches were the result of Paul's ministry. When ministering in Rome, Claudia, a Welsh princess, was saved under Paul's ministry and returned to Wales carrying the truth. Her husband was named Pudens. 2 Timothy 4:21 -- Do thy diligence to come before winder, Eubulius greets thee, and Pudens, and Linus, and Claudia, and all the brethren.
According to Bible scholars, Paul did no such thing. Any more than Joseph of Arimathea hid out in Britain with Jesus during his adolescent years.
These Welsh Baptist claim Paul journeyed to Wales and preached among them for two years, starting several churches
I can claim that my guinea pigs speak to me in ancient Mayan and relate the secrets of the universe to me. So? Do you have anything more?
Many of the Baptist churches started in America was by these Welsh Baptists.
How many?
We trace our orign all the way back to John, Jesus, and Paul.
Etch a Sketch does not cut it in religious history. Baptists can trace their roots back to Zwingli and no further.
We existed long before Constantine founded and declared Catholicism the state religion. Catholicism went on to severely persecute the Baptist and later ana-Baptist for their stand on the truth. Baptist are not protestants, we trace our origin back to the churches beginning.
Ulrich Zwingli is as far back as Baptists can trace. The AnaBaptists split and from thence the Baptists come. The reason that they were so persecuted (and almost entirely from the other children of the Reformation) is that their founder and protector was a lunatic and did not afford them ongoing protection as the Lutherans and Calvinists enjoyed. The Calvinists (especially) in the US established state religions and practiced extremely violent Christian charity upon their Christian brethren. The only original colonies that did not establish a state religion were Rhode Island and Maryland.
The Baptists were hated almost as much as the Quakers by the Reformed and were driven south. Not by Catholics, but by the other children of the Reformation.
You may wish to follow the exhortation to engage brain before posting.
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