Posted on 08/12/2010 3:10:34 PM PDT by armydoc
Your beliefs are unique to you, as Protestantism has no beliefs that require adherence, each Protestant invents his own church of one. That is not the case with Catholics. The Catholic Church has doctrines that are unchangeable, and a Catholic MUST believe them, or he is not a Catholic. PERIOD. A Protestant can call themselves a Christian in a state of grace with a direct line to the Holy Ghost, even if they don't believe Christ is God. A Catholic is a heretic if he denies one dogma. A Catholic who dies with one mortal sin (heresy is a mortal sin, goes to hell.
Protestantism is like a body care system that teaches that one must eat and exercise to live better. But they leave it up to the person to figure out the rest.
Catholicism tells you that you must eat good food, what foods to eat, and in what quantities, and what foods MUST NEVER be eaten. It says that you must exercise, how much to exercise, and exactly what exercises to do, and which you MUST never do. And if you don't follow the most important teachings which are vital to your survival, you are no longer a Catholic.
re: I will say again that God clearly states Salvation is in Christ alone and His finished work on our behalf....
Like it or not, the reality is that is just your one person opinion.
“There are as many sects now and beliefs as there are heads. This fellow has nothing to do with baptism. Another one denies the sacraments. A third believes there is another world between this one and the last day. Some teach that Christ is not God. Some say this, some say that. There is no rustic so rude that if he dreams or fancies anything believes it must be the whisper of the Holy Spirit and that he himself must be a prophet.” (Martin Luther)
....Well now you have certainly expressed some pretty profound rules and regulations of the Catholic church which if you don't do you are not Catholic.....from all the threads I have seen on Fr there would be several very informed and learnered Catholics who would NOT agree with what you are saying.
But I've seen enough of your posts to recognize that in my view you are far from the Catholics I have had the pleasure of learning from here on FR......So on that note I'll stick with those who are trustworthy in what they speak....and may you know the truth that sets people free. Have a good day.
Does that make B16 and JPII heretics, then?
I hope that you are just innocently posting me out of context. Please read again what I wrote, and please come back and post a retraction.
here’s another thought for you:
Outside of the Church there is no sanctifying grace:
Catechism of the Council of Trent, Tan Books, p. 243: “For the Eucharist is the end of all the Sacraments, and the symbol of unity and brotherhood in the Church, [u][b]outside of which none can attain grace[/b][/u].”
Here the Catechism teaches that outside the Church none can attain grace. This is not complete. Predisposing or prevenient graces are given to those outside the Church[/u] so that they can turn to God, change their lives and enter the Church. Without these graces no one would ever convert. Pope Clement XI in the dogmatic constitution Unigenitus (Sept. 8, 1713) condemned the proposition that, “Outside the Church, no grace is granted.” The Catechism more accurately intended to teach that outside the Church no sinner can attain sanctifying grace, which is true, since outside the Catholic Church there is no remission of sins (Pope Boniface VIII, Unam Sanctam, 1302, ex cathedra).
Pope Boniface VIII, Unam Sanctam, Nov. 18, 1302, ex cathedra: “With Faith urging us we are forced to believe and to hold the one, holy, Catholic Church and that, apostolic, and we firmly believe and simply confess this Church [b]outside of which there is no salvation NOR REMISSION OF SIN[/b]…”
Again, I ask again that you retract your posting, I assum it is a misunderstanding. Intentionally leaving what you wrote without a correction is bearing false witness.
Devotion, esteem or love for Our Blessed Mother only comes about by the grace of God. It is a sign that one has God's grace, for to a man without God's grace the true Faith will always appear as folly.
People who have no esteem for the Mother of God, have not God's Grace. Some because there time has not yet come, others because they have rejected God's Grace.
Verdugo wrote:
Your beliefs are unique to you, as Protestantism has no beliefs that require adherence, each Protestant invents his own church of one. That is not the case with Catholics. The Catholic Church has doctrines that are unchangeable, and a Catholic MUST believe them, or he is not a Catholic. PERIOD.
A Protestant can call themselves a Christian in a state of grace with a direct line to the Holy Ghost, even if they don't believe Christ is God.
A Catholic is a heretic if he denies one dogma. A Catholic who dies with one mortal sin (heresy is a mortal sin, goes to hell.
Protestantism is like a body care system that teaches that one must eat and exercise to live better. But they leave it up to the person to figure out the rest.
Catholicism is like a body care sytem that tells you that you must eat good food, what foods to eat, and in what quantities, and what foods MUST NEVER be eaten. It says that you must exercise, how much to exercise, and exactly what exercises to do, and which you MUST never do. And if you don't follow the most important teachings which are vital to your survival, you are no longer a Catholic.
I completely agree that the historical teachings of the Catholic Church held the interpretation of EENS that you hold. Yet, JPII and B16 have a completely different interpretation. I’ll restate my question then: Are JPII and B16 heretics? And, another one for you: Are you a sedevacantist?
How about “Thou shalt have NO other gods before me”?
It's hard to know what JPII and B16 believe, as they never come out and say it clearly.
Look, IF "nobody can be saved, no matter how much he has given away in alms and even if he has shed blood in the name of Christ", does not mean what it says (and all the DOGMATIC definitions say the same thing), then, NOTHING is what it says. AND, our whole religion is built on sand. If that clear definition does not mean what it says, then how can we judge what JPII & B16 have unclearly said or not said? Who knows what they believe? I don't bother with analyzing them, we had the truth handed to us long ago.
It's hard to know what JPII and B16 believe, as they never come out and say it clearly.
Look, IF "nobody can be saved, no matter how much he has given away in alms and even if he has shed blood in the name of Christ", does not mean what it says (ALL the DOGMATIC definitions on EENS say "nobody" in slightly different ways), then, NOTHING is what it says. AND, our whole religion is built on sand. If that clear definition does not mean what it says, then how can we judge what JPII & B16 have unclearly said or not said? Who knows what they believe? I don't bother with analyzing them, we had the truth handed to us long ago.
Who has the authority and who proves that he is a heretic? That is the question. We have no authority. Pope Honorius was excommunicated 45 years after he died, by another pope.
re: What is unclear about this statement?:
"For those who are not formally and visibly members of the Church, salvation in Christ is accessible by virtue of a grace which, while having a mysterious relationship to the Church, does not make them formally part of the Church, but enlightens them in a way which is accommodated to their spiritual and material situation".
That “salvation in Christ is accessible by virtue of a grace", IS CORRECT, "salvation is accesible by grace". Without grace there is no turning to God for anyone, Catholic or otherwise. Accesible does not mean that one is saved, it just means that it is available. This does not say that Protestants can be saved outside of the Church, which would be a heresy.
I doubt it was a real angel that appeared to Joseph Smith or
Mohammed, either. Satan can appear as an angel of light, only testing the spirits by the word of God can reveal truth or error.
“Mary was flesh and will one day be spirit.”
Well actually she’ll be given an incorruptible body the same as Jesus Christ.
“By your thinking, Mary would not be around except for HER mother, through whom Mary came. So why don’t you go show more respect for the Grandmother of God. But then the Greatgrandmother of God would be even greater... and so on, and so on.....”
Don’t give the Vatican any more ideas; next they’ll be floating the notion of an incorruptible line of super women dating back to EVE. (after all we can’t have sinless Mary being born from a sinful mother’s birth canal that a sinful father had “penetrated”...sarcasm tag on)
“As Jesus was saying these things, a woman in the crowd called out, ‘Blessed is the mother who gave you birth and nursed you.’ He replied, ‘Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and obey it.’ “ Luke 11: 27-28”
This pretty much negates the Vatican’s centuries of Mary”ology” as far as where I am standing! Jesus said in effect Mary can’t help you, only repentence and adherence to the word of God is what counts.
Paul said we are surrounded by a “whole cloud of witnesses”. So rethink your statement again, the dead in Christ do have living consciousness. Christ had a living consciousness as he preached in Hell for the three days while his body lay dead in the tomb. The rich man had a consciousness of being in hell while noting that Lazarus was in the “Bosom of Abraham”.
Now your statements regarding time experienced by our spirits in God’s spiritual plane verses our temporal plane may have some merit but it is speculative. Paul spoke of these clouds of witnesses existing in the NOW(temporal) time. He didn’t say however that we were to try to talk to them; we were to be encouraged by their presence never the less!
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