Testimony of a Former Irish Priest

BereanBeacon.Org ^ | Richard Peter Bennett

[Jvette]

I am constantly amazed at how vicious the counter-strikes and accusations can be. Some to the point of being slanderous and beyond the bounds of honest adult interaction not even to mention the forum rules. Some can be so quick to spit insults towards exaggerated injury and then quickly retreat into the “poor persecuted me” mode. Somehow I don't think this counts in God's eyes towards “rejoicing in suffering”. Jesus said we are blessed when we endure all manner of evil being spoken against us falsely.

Now, now, don't be so hard on the Protestants here. They really do mean well and only want Catholics to be saved from the pits of hell.

[Deo volente]

Those are excellent questions you posed there. Very good.

There’s something called “development of doctrine”. It’s central in Catholic Tradition. Here are some links to get you started.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Development_of_doctrine

http://www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?id=7757&CFID=45944869&CFTOKEN=13060226

http://www.catholic.com/library/Can_Dogma_Develop.asp

Cardinal Newman’s classic essay on the subject:
http://www.newmanreader.org/works/development/index.html

[Quix]

I pretty fiercely disagree.Y'ALL'S:

1. THREAD TITLES;

2. WORD CHOICES;

3. PHRASING;

4. SENTENCES;

5. TONES;

6. BRAZEN DISTORTIONS, FALSEHOODS ABOUT HISTORY;

7. BRAZEN DISTORTIONS, FALSEHOODS ABOUT SCRIPTURE;

8. BRAZEN DISTORTIONS, FALSEHOODS ABOUT MARY;

9. BRAZEN DISTORTIONS, FALSEHOODS ABOUT THE BODY OF CHRIST;

10. BRAZEN DISTORTIONS, FALSEHOODS ABOUT WORD MEANINGS;

11. SLIPPERY BRAZENNESS EVEN ABOUT THE VATICAN'S OWN PUBLICATIONS, EDICTS, ENCYCLICALS . . .

12. HAUGHTY TYRANNICAL EXCLUSIVIST ARROGANCE TOWARD ALL OUT-GROUPS . . .

. . .

ARE EACH ONE AS OFFENSIVE TO MANY OF US PRODDYS AS MY FIERCEST ASSERTIONS ARE TO THE MOST THIN-SKINNED OF Y'ALL.

The major differences are:

1. PRODDYS DO NOT DEMAND THAT RC'S AND THE REST OF THE WORLD CONFORM TO PRODDYS' SENSIBILITIES! We aren't individually nor collectively THAT OUTRAGEOUSLY GALACTICALLY ARROGANT.

2. PRODDYS DO NOT RUN SCREAMING AND WAILING TO THE NEAREST AUTHORITY CALLING DOWN PUNISHMENT ON ALL AND SUNDRY BECAUSE our thin-skinned sensibilities got brushed up against or even scratched good--OR EVEN GORED.

3. PRODDYS DON'T TEND TO WORSHIP INSTITUTIONS, OBJECTS, HIERARCHIES, DOGMA--even when they do at all--ANYWHERE NEAR THE DEGREE THAT RC'S DEMONSTRABLY DO.

4. THEREFORE, even WHEN our sacred cows get gored, it's NOT anywhere near the big deal it is for RC's. Most of us wake-up a bit more spiritually and realize THAT SACRED COW NEEDED GORED!

5. PRODDYS realize that on a forum like FR, RC's are NOT Proddys. We do NOT DEMAND that FR CONFORM STRICTLY AND ONLY TO PRODDY sensibilities. We operate within our own sensibilities and toss at other groups whatever we feel fitting to toss at them, JUST AS THEY VIGOROUSLY AND RELENTLESSLY TOSS AT US AD NAUSEUM.

6. RC's seem to minimize the insulting insufferable, outrageous, assaultive wording of thread title after thread title; caucus title after caucus title. "Because it's ROMAN CATHOLIC, IT'S AUTOMATICALLY SACRED SO IT COULDN'T BE ASSAULTIVE OR INSULTING TO ANYONE" seems to be the VERY ARROGANT ASSUMPTION!

7. PRODDYS ON FR ARE NOT THAT BIG ON taking up staves and pitchforks against folks who insult and assault our sensibilities and personhoods. We figure it's par for the course; goes with the territory and is grist for the mill. So what. Most of the time (98% of the time), we don't even think its worth bothering the RM about--EVEN WHEN THE VAST MAJORITY OF VERY HARSH, VERY INSULTING, VERY ASSAULTIVE PERSONAL INSULTS ARE FROM RC'S and seem to get way more free passes than Proddys ever get on such scores. So what. Goes with the territory. The RM's job is thankless and near impossible anyway--why bother him over petty stuff.

8. PRODDYS don't insist on !!!!CONTROLLING!!!! the language etc. on FR according to PRODDY standards, skin thickness and sensibilities. We aren't that ARROGANT and we aren't that thin-skinned--with very rare exceptions.

9. PRODDYS are beyond 1 year old. We do NOT HAVE A PROBLEM DIFFERENTIATING OUR PERSONAL IDENTITIES FROM OUR RELIGIOUS ORGANIZATIONAL IDENTITIES. We can hold our most precious RELIGIOUS organizations, institutions, dogmas, practices, rituals at arm's length and consider such at least somewhat objectively. The RELIGIOUS DNA of FR RC's seems to utterly prevent that virtually across the board even with the more rational RC's.

10. MOST FREQUENTLY POSTING FR PRODDYS are EVIDENTLY more emotionally, psychologically and spiritually mature THAN TO AUTOMATICALLY BE THROWN INTO A COMPULSIVE RAGING FROTHING FIT every time our sensibilities are assaulted.

I'm skeptical that these DIFFERENCES between the two camps will be well understood by very many, if any on the other side, or not. REGARDLESS, GIVEN THE VOLUME LEVEL OF WAILING AND SCREAMING ON THE OTHER SIDE, THEY OBVIOUSLY NEEDED STATED . . . AGAIN.

[don-o]

I caucus with the Catholics where our beliefs concur. They don’t seem to have a problem with that. Why should you? Why don’t you (and many others on “your side”) ever challenge each other over your own differences? Why do Catholics get ALL the attention?

[Quix]

AMEN! AMEN! AMEN!

[Mad Dawg]

I’m saying that if the Catholic Church’s teachings and beliefs outside the Written Word of God, the doctrines, and traditions are on an equal basis as the Written Word of God, they why not include them in the Written Word of God?

But why bother, under the same conjectures?

Peter DID write 2 books.

They were letters. That suggests they were "occasional," that is, prompted by the occasion, by what was happening.

We're tripping over the "sufficient unto the day" and "do not worry what you are to say" models. You seem to be wanting to get it all down ahead of time in hard copy format. Back then we said, "The Lord will provide, 'as on that day and Meribah and Masa' and in the Council of Jerusalem."

Put it this way: Despite what you all say about us, we trust God to provide. You want it all in writing!

Your church believes she has the doctrines and traditions that formed the Church the Body of Christ. There was the time to include them. Wow, I wouldn't put it like that. This is the old depositum fidei notion, right? Maybe the store house is just so rich that it can only be unpacked on a need to know basis.

The Bible in some sense is so elliptical and ambiguous -- as evidenced by the diversity among Sola Scripture groups -- that it sometimes feels like it, by itself, is barely enough. Yet when we engage with it and the God who provided it, we find more than we hoped for -- though not enough to end contention, evidently.

[count-your-change]

In deed it is! If a partial page of Jame's writing exists it means the rest of the James manuscript exists or once did.

Or do you think James quit writing at the end of chapter one??

Ten cents of research would get you ten dollars of information but apparently you've not done even that small amount before making your assertion.

This just one example of several 3rd. cen. Bible manuscripts.

[Brian Kopp DPM]

"HTML clean-up on aisle 4143, please."

[Quix]

INDEED. AMEN. GREAT POST. PARTICULARLY:

---

Rome has peddled the terrible lie that the rescue of a man’s soul lies in the hands of the man and of course the hands of Rome. This lie from the pit should be exposed for what it is...a demonic deception, heresy of the highest order. Exposing Rome is not Calvinistic, but the Gospel. Calvin just happened to be one among many that noticed it and raised the alarm. For that we are grateful.

But, to say that only God manages the rescue of a human is simply to describe what the Scriptures claim in no uncertain terms. It may grate on my fragile sensibilities (strike me as paradoxical or “illogical”), but as Paul noted, that’s my problem, not an indictment against the truth. And, if one cannot see this, the Scripture goes on to say that the person has not been granted eyes to see or ears to hear, and as such is only reporting a fact.

[don-o]

I'm bored with counting spitwads. Quix has kindly began to number his wads and we can all do simple math. I may begin to do word counts, when I can bear to actually scan through the technicolor spew.

[Quix]

I think I understand your perspective.

You know it’s not mine.

I also think your perspective, while somewhat coherent and logical, is not per se founded in Scripture nor that supported from history.

[betty boop]

She is NOT THE MOTHER OF GOD ALMIGHTY.

I never said she was; nor does the Church I do believe. Mary is the human mother of His divine Son. That's God's miracle, right there.

As to "facilitated worship," I don't see anything wrong with it. It is yet another route to immediacy under God. Even Protties have "facilitated worship." It's just their rituals are a whole lot less elaborate.

Again, I can only speak for myself....

Thank you ever so much for writing, dear brother in Christ!

[Mad Dawg]

Yep. A not too well known fact about Paul VI is that when some metropolitan of something or other came to the Vatican, Paul VI got down on the floor and kissed his shoes. Most of us love and admire our Orthodox brothers and are pained by our failure to find a way to union.

Aside from anything else, their worship is WAY COOL! The only reason I would want a long life would be to read more Orthodox stuff. It’s mostly wonderful.

Okay, I’d kind of enjoy grandchildren too ...

[Quix]

I am constantly amazed at how vicious the counter-strikes and accusations can be. Some to the point of being slanderous and beyond the bounds of honest adult interaction not even to mention the forum rules. Some can be so quick to spit insults towards exaggerated injury and then quickly retreat into the “poor persecuted me” mode. Somehow I don't think this counts in God's eyes towards “rejoicing in suffering”. Jesus said we are blessed when we endure all manner of evil being spoken against us falsely.

--------
INDEED.

[Quix]

THANKS FOR YOUR KIND REPLY.

BLESSED BE THE NAME OF THE LORD.
BLESSED BE THE WORD OF THE LORD.
BLESSED BE THE GOD OF ABRAHAM, ISAAC AND JACOB.

[Dutchboy88]

Thank you for the kind words. Did not mean to exclude you from the list. Just forgot, and have never figured out how to create a list that I could retrieve each time.

[Mad Dawg]

I think that one way to look at it, as though we were from mars and not involved is that “you guys” put a lot of the affect on the Bible that we put on the Sacraments.

[Quix]

Gosh, they think we all lie and now we’re not even funny??? How can we go on????

---

HARUMPH!

Being accused of lying is one thing.

Being accused of not being funny is beyond the pale. I demand a redress. [cue RC wailing, I can’t be bothered]

[betty boop]

I always thought these were cultural holdovers from when many more people than today were illiterate, and the Church sought to pass on revealed truths through a variety of methods other than writing.

Well when most people were illiterate, some other means of transmission of God's Truth HAD to be found. God-to-human communication can take many forms. The point is to convey and preserve His Truth, literally down the ages. Which since these rituals did just that, I don't see why they need to be disparaged by more modernist thinkers.

Thank you ever so much, dear grey_whiskers, for your excellent insights! Including the insight "nothing makes a lesson sink in like participating in it." So very, very true. But this involves the body as well as the soul....

[Jvette]

I’m saying that if the Catholic Church’s teachings and beliefs outside the Written Word of God, the doctrines, and traditions are on an equal basis as the Written Word of God, they why not include them in the Written Word of God? Peter DID write 2 books.

None of the Catholic Church's teachings and beliefs are outside the Written Word of God. Everything she holds to be true and necessary for the salvation of souls is within Scripture both explicitly and implicitly. Protestants choosing to disbelieve her exegesis is nothing new. Heresy and schism have existed since the beginning. The Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist, the primacy of Peter, the doctrines regarding Mary, purgatory, confession, ALL OF IT found in Scripture, but that Scriptural evidence as understood by Catholics is REJECTED and MOCKED as superstition, cultish or satanic. The NEED has been met through each subsequent generation of believers, just as their needs are still being met today as old heresies are dredged up over and over.

The outrageous slings and arrows thrown here I gladly accept. But, I refuse to accept as sincere that the "questions" posed here are for my own good or the good of my soul. If my salvation were the true intent, the time spent here in self congratulatory aggrandizement would be better spent in prayer for that intention.

One day I will humbly stand before my Lord, Jesus Christ on the day of reckoning and answer to Him and only Him for my faith in His Church and await His judgment.