Posted on 07/18/2010 6:04:05 AM PDT by Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus
Would you agree, then, that it is the criticism of such arguments that leads the debaters to a more effective means of debate?
Or perhaps having it pointed out that they’re rehashing the same points without effect that can lead some to find a new way to approach the problem?
I’m not saying that was my intent. That would be claiming too much forethought and planning than went into my post. But it could happen. Sometimes, though, you just have to vent your frustrations, and that is what I was doing. These arguments are tried, tired and need something new.
I find it disappointing that the only response to what I said was to question whether the arguments should happen, and that there is nothing to address my assertion regarding anti-Catholics attending Mass or vice versa. Trust me, I’m all for the arguments. I don’t ACTUALLY want them to stop. Not only do I see a lot of fun discussion, it prompts me to examine things I might not otherwise. But the fact remains that the arguments are never really any different.
I just expect too much, I guess. It’s why I was very disappointed with all the Bible studies I attended. It’s all the same.
- and I do not believe him to be an honest man -
He clearly is not.
“By their fruits shall you know them...”
“This is true.. It is so funny that the Catholics can not handle it.”
Handle what? A string of lies by a fraud and a fake?
ROTFLMAO!!!!!
On this forum it would be very difficult. It's gotten increasingly uncivil again.
I am Catholic and will be always, but have worked in protestant churches due to my specific talents and, frankly, I found a lot of what I saw in those places as very spiritually and philosophically shallow. I will probably be lampooned for saying that, but there it is. I just didn't see depth to it or looking below the surface by the people. Weddings had scripture readings that weren't related to sacrifice or marriage, for one preacher, baptism was a cliche. There wasn't an emphasis on taking what was taught and applying it to life. Not like what I heard this morning, that yes, it is important to do everything for God and family, but you have to listen, really listen to what God is asking of us. There were a number of very lovely people attending services in those protestant churches, but, not unlike a lot of Catholics I know, they didn't always take the teachings of faith to their everyday lives. And it was in any number of different avenues.
Faith should not be, at any time, a badge to be worn, but what gives meaning to all of life - faith, family, work. The theme of today's scripture readings at Mass was all about hospitality. The story of Mary and Martha from Luke was the Gospel, Abraham and Sarah welcoming the strangers from Genesis and a psalm (13?) and epistle reading to match. As worthy as the work is, and appreciated, we still have to accept what is being asked of us.
Another thing to remember, that religion and faith, and it's very much this way in Catholicism, is individual. We have free will, therefore, it's all individual. We worship collectively, we have fellowship collectively and we celebrate collectively, but when it comes to the actual sacraments and prayer, other than marriage, it's all individual.
Now, if the next generation could just be better catechized and if the people my age would make the effort to educate themselves - including reading scripture along the way - we'd be doing better. That we're supposed to keep up with all of this wasn't taught real well either in recent years.
jesus-is-savior.com and jesus-is-lord.com are banned sites on Free Republic.
Because Christianity is not a religion of a book, but a religion of the entire revealed Word of God.
Don’t confuse them with facts! It gets in the way of their paradigms.
Well said! A fabulous assessment.
I am in agreement on the “spiritually shallow” bit, for the most part. I don’t think it’s necessarily on purpose, mind you. Many of the folks I know just don’t realize. We’re talking about the kind of people who pick a church based on how the choir sounds, or how “hip” the music is. I actually know someone like that.
But I also know some Protestants who have great depth and weight to their spirituality, so much so that it rivals that of many Catholics I know.
What is good with one is often found in the other, what is wrong with one is often found in the other.
Obviously, I consider the Catholic corner to be where I should lay my bet, or I wouldn’t be Catholic. But I simply cannot condemn Protestants for being Protestant. Sometimes you go with what you know.
That said, I think those who accept accountability, responsibility and the concept that some things are beyond our ken would ultimately settle into the Catholic routine over the Protestant, were they to allow themselves the chance. Those who want the easy road would not. Just my observation, of course.
“”On the few occasions I attended RC services family members thought it odd that I brought my Bible and I did notice that no one else attending brought a Bible.”
~”Because Christianity is not a religion of a book, but a religion of the entire revealed Word of God.”~
Maybe if you had grabbed a missel at the entrance where the hymnals are kept, you could have read the the readings and Gospel for that day without bringing yours. Also, it’s easier to sing along with the choir the psalms if you have the missel in front of you.
I only have selected psalms I love memorized so that is what I have to do.
That’s it for me.
The same tired, vapid arguments are reducing discourse on FR essentially to the same level as the vapid, tired political verbiage issued by my local rag.
Opps did not know that
WILL THE REAL RICHARD BENNETT PLEASE STAND UP?In 1963, when he was 25, Richard Bennett, a native of Ireland, was ordained to the Catholic priesthood. In 1985 he abandoned the priesthood and Catholicism. Today he is a Fundamentalist missionary and decidedly anti-Catholic.
He runs a small ministry known as the Berean Beacon (www.bereanbeacon.org). At his web site he has an archive of articles, one of which is called "The Antichrist Unveiled." The final line in that article says that the testimony of "martyrs and reformers" "was that Papal Rome is the Babylon of prophecy, 'that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth,' and that its head, the Roman pontiff, is the predicted 'Man of Sin,' or Antichrist."
Most Fundamentalists do not go so far as to claim that the pope is the Antichrist. They realize that Scripture refers to the Antichrist as being a particular man, and, if a pope is the Antichrist, which pope would that be? There are so many to choose from! If they say, "the current pope," they look a bit ridiculous, since John Paul II has not performed a single act that is attributed by Scripture to the Antichrist.
Bennett also offers his "Life Testimony" at his site. It reads as many others read: lots of little facts, but big things seem to be missing. The reasons offered for his disillusionment with Catholicism and conversion to Fundamentalism just don't add up. They are too insubstantial.
Do intelligent people really abandon the Catholic Church because they suddenly discover that some Catholics, including some priests and bishops, are venal or ignorant?
I can imagine how a youth who lived under overly protective parents might venture into the world for the first time and be surprised, but how long can that surprise last? Seminary life 40 years ago was more sheltered than it is today, but were the new ordinands of 1963 really so cut off from the world and from an understanding of human nature? I doubt it.
If a man throws up his hands and says, "I can't be a priest any longer; I can't serve with such men any longer," is there anything that necessarily impels him toward Fundamentalism? Wouldn't it make more sense for such a man to set aside religion entirely, at least for a while, as he sorts out his life?
Something in Bennett's story just doesn't add up.
Go to his site and see the other conversion stories he has posted. One is by A.J. Krause. Among other things, Krause discusses the meaning of "rock" in Matthew 16:18. He seems unaware that the argument he proffers has been refuted innumerable times by Catholic apologists.
No, in Matthew 16:18 "rock" does not refer to Jesus or to Peter's profession of faith. The only interpretation that makes sense is that the word refers to Peter himself, as I explained at length in "Catholicism and Fundamentalism" and as many other Catholics have explained in other books. Krause makes no attempt to grapple with the Catholic rebuttal; he does not even seem to be aware that there is one.
The top page of the Berean Beacon web site sports photographs of Richard Bennett and A.J. Krause. They look like regular guys. One could imagine spending a pleasant evening with them, if the topic of discussion were not religion.
Krause I take to be an enthusiastic new convert to Fundamentalism; allowances must be made for him. Bennett is in a different category, since he has every reason to know better. Like some other ex-priests I know, Bennett brings to mind the young fellow who, having jilted his girlfriend, now takes every opportunity to talk her down.
There is something ungentlemanly and unseemly in that.
So, they think Bennett's "testimony" doesn't quite pass the smell test either.
I've always though "Berean Beacon" to be a particularly odd citation for Protestants. The Bereans are mentioned in Acts 17:10-14, as being "more open-minded than those [Jews] in Thessalonika, and they welcomed the word very readily; every day they studied the scriptures to check whether it was true." Now, scholars tell us that the letters to the Thessalonians are the earliest-written books of the New Testament. Therefore the only scriptures available to the Bereans were the books of the Old Testament. Being Hellenistic Jews, the Bereans would have used a Greek (Septuagint) version of the OT, which contains 2 Maccabees, so they probably would have believed in Purgatory and prayers for the dead, both very Catholic and not very Protestant ideas. Moreover, it is in 2 Thessalonians 2:15 that we read: "Stand firm, then, brothers, and keep the traditions that we [Paul] taught you, whether by word of mouth or letter". Which pretty much knocks sola scriptura into a cocked hat.
As for the breviary, anyone who is interested can visit an online version at Universalis and judge for themselves how much scripture is involved in saying the daily office, and whether or not it is taken "out of context".
I wasn’t meaning to insinuate that some Catholic clergy are the only ones who don’t read their Bibles. I’m just saying that it’s not at all inconceivable to me that a priest could go off the rails, despite having had the Book in front of him every day for years. It’s not that lay people don’t do the same thing, it’s that somehow it hurts that much more and seems like that much more of a betrayal or disappointment when an ordained leader of the Church does it.
I agree that there’s a lot of ignorance all the way around.
You hit a nerve with this one.
Yes, I can agree to that...but not that alone, it does oftentimes bring the issue back to the table though, instead of so much bashing. Besides I think that the anger so many feel is in part a crossover of the state of affairs in our nation...everyone is on edge. So Perhaps it was just a needed vent for you... and there isn’t an individual on these threads who hasn’t seen the same frustrations.
The bottom line is truth vs. falsehood...and some of those falsehoods are leading people away from the source of all truth...just as they are intended to do.
If you’ve become disappointed in your Bible studies...keep looking and trusting God He will calibrate your decisions as you search for the deeper things of God. I recall wanting to know more...and was told frankly when the student is ready God will provide the teachers...and He does. But What I wasn’t doing, I learned, was studying the scriptures between just God and I. It was after I began doing this, and finding that God does reveal to us a individuals, that the place of further teaching opened for me. He tests us even in our seeking Him in His written word....I had to learn to stay with that for awhile. But then He provided an outstanding teacher in the church I began attending.
Bible studies are not all the same...but the deeper things of God are taught as we ourselves dive into the deeper waters of His word...then He provides those to take us further and challenge us. Sounds like you need more than where you are at...pray for more and He will give you that in time.
Catholics believe that THEIR only way is true to God's word. So what is it about that that you're criticizing?
Go ahead. Links will be acceptable.
Please note that Catholics Answers said EXACTLY what I said they said about Bennett: that he was once a Catholic priest.
That’s all I said they said about him.
Tell me what you really know of this man outside of his testimony please...I am all ears for I believe this is a moving testimony of a sincere heart who was seeking the truth.
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